Picking is less smooth after switching to new hand position

I switched my hand position by going from a thumb anchor to a pinky anchor. I acquired a fast and smooth picking motion by leaning on my thumb, but escaping on upstrokes was impossible. Following advice (from @Tom_Gilroy) and being motivated from a conversation I had with @joebegly, I switched my hand position to leaning on my pinky, and this made escaping on upstrokes easier.

The picking motion has now become less smooth compared to my earlier set up, but at least I’m more able to escape both ways, being able to play something in the video below. I have 2 questions following the video.

  1. How to fix this “choppyness”? It’s not that smooth anymore compared to earlier video (Posted below)
  2. What is the definition of “Fast and sloppy”? The lick above is being played at 126 bpm which for me is fast enough, but it’s not clean or smooth. Is this still the path to follow?
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Didn’t your pick slant turn a bit more downwards since you supinated your forearm more to achieve that pinky anchor?

You could try compensating for that by introducing more edge picking, by bending your thumb so the pick rotates around the index finger a bit.

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I will give that a go :slight_smile:

There’s a lot of useful detailed advice that also addresses this problem in the Primer:

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Nice playing, @Rubaan !

You’d think this would happen, but it doesn’t look like it in his case. Any “still” I grab during the runs, I never see his pick slant much beyond a slight “up” like here:

So that could be a clue. The links @kbr supplied talk about trying to get a more “zero degree” pickslant and that’s step one from that posture IMO. If you want to do slightly “up” slant I’d say checkout how Dave Grier and Molly Tuttle navigate their DBX.

I’m not great at diagnosing video but since DBX has been a pet project of mine for a while I’ve experience many of these gotchas. Choppyness can be caused by too much pick depth BUT I think more normally we see it when there’s a mismatch in the setup vs the motion somewhere. One great thing you’ve done is compare to your DSX. When DBX is right, it should feel no more effortful than well executed single escape, so keep going back to that litmus test. Tweak things till it feels easier, don’t keep doing the exact same thing and expecting it to get better. I’ve fallen into that trap too often lol

Also, I used to think breaking 120 bpm meant you were golden but I’ve heard Troy say even 140 is too slow to rule out possible inefficiency. And that’s been my experience. It’s sort of “tiered”. Breaking 120 is great and allows you to play lots of awesome stuff in this genre. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t optimizations we need. I do think the link supplied by kbr is excellent and the most recent guidance on how to get DBX going as quickly as possible. Troy’s gone through lots of iterations of teaching us how to get motions going. Seemingly, that zero degree pickslant RDT setup gives us DBX “for free”.

As I mentioned above I think you should set your sights even higher. You want to find the motion that “works” at higher speeds. In this realm I’d expect to hear/see some swipes. I’ve posted about this probably more than most people care to read, but I’ll say it again - Steve Morse and Andy Wood have tons of swiping when they get into the 150 - 160 bpm range. That’s not a knock on them, it’s just what tends to happen as the motion flattens out. They sound awesome! But the point is, doing some tests in those ranges can be illuminating because if the motion we’re using won’t go that fast, it’s inefficient on some level, maybe even just slightly.

Great work though! It’s exciting progress and sounds great. My experience with this stuff is that breaking into those next level of speeds can be challenging if we don’t keep the whole program in mind - constant honest feedback. Does the motion work at decently fast speeds (140 - 150 in this context)? If not, we’re either trying to be a little too clean and not letting the motion do it’s thing, or we’ve got to tweak the motion and change it to make it faster.

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To be precise, it turned more “downwards” compared to what we see on the second video: there’s an upward pickslant in the second video (if my eyes are not fooling me), and on the first video, the pick is clearly slanted more downwards, relative to that. (The end result is that it’s close to zero degree.)

The point is, when you combine 1. zero degree or downward slant with 2. performing DSX, you need to do something to smoothen the attack in order to not get garage spikes on upstrokes. That something is more edge picking.

I’m no expert by any means, trying to figure those motions by myself too… Just repeating the advice from CtC as I understood it :stuck_out_tongue:

(which by the way, I’m not sure I should do, people should definitely start by watching the Primer videos, a picture is worth more than a thousand words)

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Thank you both @kbr and @joebegly

I thought it was difficult to reply to you separately so let me do it like this:

I’ve watched all these Primers 1.5 years ago, so I’m not sure if I have seen that particular video that @kbr mentioned. When was it uploaded? I’m a little hestitant in getting a membership because I’m studying at the moment, not having a job, and I want to be careful with my savings.

Does it matter how the DSX is acquired? Through DT or RDT?

@joebegly I’ve seen the Molly and David Grier video which was fun to watch, but there was nothing that helped me to move on. I simply could not escape on upstrokes except when I rotated my arm. Playing a 2nps lick starting on a downstroke would become impossible, as my arm was rotating wildly.

In my pronated setup, I was able to play something approaching to 200 bpm or even more, although elbow started to get more involved.

In the supinated setup, I’m able to pick well above 140 bpm, but it really will be either DSX (Comfortably but choppy) or USX (a bit awkward). But playing a lick like in my first video at that speed will have me end up missing 80% of the notes. I can try and upload a video with my different motions to see what’s up at those higher speeds.

Could you elaborate on this? In a TC, Troy told me to try my Single Escape motion (2nd video) with a more neutral pickslant, but that didn’t help me too much. Same Issue, I have to rotate my arm to escape on upstrokes.

I have a deceptively powerful technique for aligning your pick grip to your new motion.

While picking, relax enough to allow the pick to rotate into the position it wants to go, without dropping it.

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I do this all the time, it works great. I’ve posted about it several times. Cool to see someone else recommend it