Players Unintentionally Playing In Free Time

Playing Technique
#1

@Troy Have you noticed that even among most heavy metal guitar heroes, that when they’re playing at or near top speed, they’re basically playing in free time? By free time I mean when they’re picking a long run that’s probably meant to be straight 32nd notes, it’s likely to have some bars including groups of 7 to a beat or 9 to a beat mixed in with groups of 8 to a beat which is almost certainly not an intentional change of numbers of notes to a beat. I also mean that there will be places where let’s say on the fourth beat of the bar (playing in 4/4 time) a player will play his 32nd notes a little slow so that that group of 8 32nd notes instead of finishing at the end of the bar, it will actually finish just a fraction of a second after the next bar has begun, meaning that the phrase accidentally crosses over into the next bar because the player wasn’t keeping strict time or was unable to play fast enough to finish that last group of 8 notes where he wanted to. This results in the phrase that was meant to be the phrase that would have begum starting on the first downbeat of the new bar instead starting late, somewhere after the first downbeat of the bar but before an entire 16th note has elapsed.

They seem to focus mainly on starting a run on the the first downbeat of a bar and finishing the run after 4 beats or six beats or 2 whole bars and they often do finish it at the rough time but the number of notes may be 31 or 33 instead of 32and not intentionally. They just try to cram in as many notes as they can within those two bars. They may start and finish on time but if you listen to the run it’s not even 32nd notes; it speeds up in laces and slows down in others (probably where there are some difficult string changes).

Have you noticed this “cramming” of notes, and players playing in free time when they’re playing very fast, even among some of the most respected heavy metal guitarists there are?

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#2

Yes I also noticed something like that when trying to transcibe, e.g., Vinnie Moore’s solos (with mixed results so far). But it seems to happen more with hammer-ons, pull-offs and sweeps than with alternate picking (though in some cases it seemed to happen also in uber fast alternate runs).

But in Vinnie’s case I must say that everything still ends up sounding great, in a way it makes the lines quite unique and near-impossible to imitate (and I am totally not a VM fanboy :smile: ).

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#3

Kee Marcello says on his REH video that he intentionally plays in free time when he’s playing those fast picked runs.

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#4

Cool player (UWPS methinks)! Even though I can’t stand major keys :smiley:

But I think that in this case the “rubato” is perfectly controlled/intentional.

#5

I have noticed this as well and I’m not sure how to approach learning these lines. If it doesn’t have a clear rhythm, how can I slow it down to a tempo I can actually play the line at? Does anybody have advice on how to deal with this?

#6

I use some advice that I read Guthrie giving - hit the right first note of each beat and let the rest sort itself out.

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#7

I typically use VLC which allows you to loop sections and slow down by any amunt without changing pitch. Then I try to hear both myself and the original and make them similar. Not a perfect system but I don’t know what else to do.

Also, sometimes I wonder if it is not a waste of time to try to imitate someone’s spontaneous playing too closely. A valid alternative is to identify the target notes and fill the gaps with stuff you like, and which goes for a similar feel.

I think many of the greats did this sort of thing when learning (e.g. I recall a Paul Gilbert interview where he says something similar)

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#8

“…as opposed to my rubato technique where I’m slowing up and speeding down…” LOL

He’s a good player - too bad Europe wasn’t a better bad. They had talented players. Maybe they just needed to hire some outside songwriters because their songs were lame.

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#9

I’m not sure if this counts as “free time,” but in reviewing some of Yngwie’s solos, there are a variety of note groupings that make things, at least for me, not very straightforward and difficult to learn. Stuff like groups of 4, 5, 6, and 7 notes all interspersed in one measure of music.

But it’s interesting because Eric Johnson does the same thing, yet to me his solos feel “easier” to learn (not usually up to tempo though!). I connect more with EJ’s rhythm and sense of melody, so maybe that has an effect on the learning process too.

#10

I remember regarding what you wrote about Yngwie’s note groupings, in the “Performance Notes” of the best Guitar magazine to ever exist - “Guitar For The Practicing Musician” the transcriber wrote “In these cases he’s probably just playing as fast as he can.” I tend to agree.

#11

haha, I agree with you 100% on that man! Out Of This World wasn’t a bad album and had loads of great guitar playing.

With regards to players playing in free time - I sometimes think that when players are playing a certain phrase they see however many bars they choose as a block of time when they can just go for it and cram whatever they want in there. It’s good to hear, but not so good when you’re trying to replicate it on guitar.

#12

That style of playing fast and “cramming” a bunch of notes into a short space goes way back to Jimmy Page - especially live. I love Zeppelin’s live concert movie “the Song Remains The Same.” Page’s playing on “Since I’ve Been Loving You” is just killer! I don’t even care if some people think it’s sloppy because it fits the vibe of the song perfectly!

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#13

Wat did I just see? That dude doesn’t appear to be using his pinky. At all! He’s still a smokin’ player. Interesting…

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#14

@milehighshred demonstrated this ‘phenomenon’ while trying to work out the intro to Malmsteen’s Trilogy.

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#15

I’ve always viewed this as a player just kind of “going for broke”. They are certainly not 100% playing in strict time. There are tons of examples we could come up with to demonstrate. I think the most likely approach is that the player is just sort of going off on a tangent, yet still having a conscious awareness of where the downbeat is. When he/she wants to end the flurry they just concentrate of returning to time on a strict subdivision of the beat.

#16

This is also common with slower playing. You hear it a lot in blues where the phrasing of the licks is constantly speeding up and slowing down. For example, Little Wing by SRV

As long as the target notes and the rhythmical and melodic feel of the phrasing itself are strong enough, you can play anything in free time.

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#17

I’m not sure I agree with him, though - when he takes that solo, he’s pretty much in the pocket for all the fast lines, which to my ear sound very rhythmic. 22:44 he intentionally jumps ahead of the beat in a way that works, and then the fast run after that he sort of rhythmically slurs his way up from what sounds like a 4-against-3 8th note into maybe 16th note triplets…? He’s, let’s call it playing freely with time, but he’s generally sticking to the meter.