Position Switching System/Playing Up and Down The Neck?

Harmony & Theory
#1

Hi everyone

A goal of mine is to learn how to start moving much freer up and down the neck of the guitar, in contrast to playing in vertical positions and box scale shapes. What I want to start a discussion about is the idea of a system or method that creates some order from the chaos of possibility of where and how position shifts are best done. You could say I’m looking for the CAGED system, of position shifting.

I’m not useless at playing lines by position shifting - in fact I can play some nice things this way - but when playing lead and improving over changes, I am much more likely to play a ‘wrong’ (not in the key or mode) note compared to playing in positions.

There is too much possibility to change position shift at any given time, it’s overwhelming. Let’s say we went with the typical three note per string major scale, you could shift position after a single note; two notes; three notes; after the first note on the next string up; after the second note on the next string up, etc. Same could be said for a CAGED position.

Maybe it would be too rigid to point to a system that shows where all the shifts must be done. The nearest thing I’ve seen to that is the Segovia scales, where the scale is what it is, but aside from the tonal implications, I see no reason why the shifts in Segovia scales are where they are. Wouldn’t it be great to have the freedom to place the shift where we like, operating in an ordered fashion, quite like the way CAGED tells us where all our relevant intervals and arpeggios are in a position?

In this video, Guthrie Trapp talks about shifting always with the index finger to make sure you land in a CAGED position shape, and while that’s useful it still leaves a lot of questions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=125g86bKAaQ (at 21 minutes in he gives a great demonstration of playing up and down the neck)

In the Oz Noy interview, he talks about playing up and down the neck a lot, and for him it’s really intuitive. I think I’ll start paying attention to the exercise that he recommends - playing jazz standards on two string sets. Mick Goodrick talks about the idea of single string and dual string playing only too, but nonetheless I’m yet to see the whole concept of position shifting ordered properly in as much detail as picking mechanics have been analysed and organised through Cracking the Code.

A part of me thinks the secret to this isn’t in a system, but in really developing a lot of little strategies that make that kind of movement possible and practising them and integrating them into the playing resource. Goes back to the Martin Miller interview on playing over the changes.

Hoping to hear back from other enthusiasts on the topic

#2

I think you’re overthinking it. Most players don’t concern themselves with the zillions of possibilities. They’re just playing a much more finite selection of phrases that are semi-memorized, or at least interchangeable phrase parts that are memorized. And if we’re talking about improvisational styles like jazz, those phrases usually have a very particular structure that sounds like “bop” and is keyed to certain chord shapes.

Simplest introduction to “phrases linked to chord shapes” style of playing I can think of is this one by Henry Johnson. Super plain-English, hands-on demonstration of how this works:

So basically, instead of trying to figure out how to memorize a thousand interconnecting note possibilities, just go the other way and start with a single phrase. Just one phrase, linked to one chord shape. Then try to connect to another phrase in another one of Henry’s “areas of activity”, as he calls it — great, sensible way of referring to it. When you listen to melodic, jazz type soloing, it’s basically that: phrases connected to other phrases.

You can always add more phrases over time and more connections. But just start with one per chord and try connecting those. Way more musical, way easier.

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#3

Cracking the Theory Code with Troy.

Super awesome. Thanks a lot for this excellent explanation, Troy!

#4

This isn’t really “theory” though. Theory is like which chords and scales go with each other and why. Most people seem to have a pretty easy time with that. But you can actually have a pretty good ear for harmony and still not really know how to improvise on a stringed instrument if you can’t figure out how to organize all your harmony knowledge on the neck. So this is really just another mechanical question.

And the good news is, at least for song-based styles of music like country, bluegrass, and jazz, the “phrases and chords” approach seems to be what almost everyone does. They may not think about it all that clearly. Or they may describe what they do in various arcane ways. But if you look at what they actually play, it very often boils down to something like this in the end game. So may as well start there.

#5

Yeah you’re right it is better seen as a physical/mechanical application to the guitar itself, I made the theory connection since the fabric of what we’re talking about here is scales and arpeggios. Thanks for your insight on this. As suspected then it’s a case of developing strategies and ways of travelling horizontally through positions into other ‘areas of activity’, and learning them as employable movements to use in improv, in quite the same way learning any phrase in a box position for improv is done.

#6

Understood Troy, thanks a lot for the awesome lesson again.

I’m going back to the woodshed and connect some phrases to chords!

#7

For me… I look at the guitar as a set of 5 or 7 notes, everything else is just an octave of these notes. You need to know the notes of the guitar neck to see the octaves, and then you can run melodys through those octaves. A great position shit practice idea is just playing on one string. Thats the logical way to learn the movement of music, the extra strings go over our heads and force us to learn in patterns, which really blinds us to what we’re actually doing and makes us slaves to muscle memory.

I regret learning music on a guitar first tbh as the extra strings and frets that basically just repeat the same 5 or 7 note patterns are overwhelming and confusing for a beginner.

#8

To change positions up: slide up your pinky.
To change positions down: slide down your index.

#9

I also had good results sliding up with the index - sometimes this feels more controlled/controllable than the pinky option!

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#10

Oh, yeah, I forgot that index and pinky can both slide! Sometimes I slide fingers 3 and 2 as well. I guess it’s just “sliding your hand.”

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#11

Practice using all your fingers, double stops, chords too, up and down.