Possible explanation for use of finger joint motion in Yngwie-style

Playing Technique
#1

I’ve been going through the newer material in the pickslanting primer, and re-watched the short video describing finger joint motion (and its relative rarity as a primary motion mechanic). I was really intrigued by the mention of “circular” picking by Eric Johnson in one of the clips.

A while back (a long while), I posted a topic in here wondering if it would be possible to develop a motion mechanism that’s even faster than any single primary, by alternating more than one joint motion–for example, to do a downstroke with the wrist, followed by an upstroke with forearm rotation (and so on). Partway through that topic, I proposed that using THREE motions in sequence, such as wrist, elbow, and fingers (example sequence: WD EU FD WU ED FU) might have potential. That old forum topic is here: Could there exist a picking tech with alternating muscular motions?

It generated some good discussion, and I was eventually more or less persuaded that it’s just not possible to chain together three motions on a single string continuously. (Maybe not 100% persuaded.) But I did experiment a bit, and it’s definitely possible to chain together faster-than-expected speeds over a three-note sequence by alternating joint motions. For example: a single wrist deviation motion can be “split” by a finger motion in the opposite direction, potentially getting three notes.

So I gave up on three-motion looping tremolo, but watching the Pickslanting Primer again today, and remembering the section of the Yngwie seminar on his occasional finger motion–I think that’s exactly what he’s doing! I think I remember even hearing Troy say that he tends to use it in volcano-style arpeggio runs, and less so on single-string scalar playing, where he instead uses his dominant wrist primary. Which would make PERFECT sense if wrist-finger-wrist combo motion is limited to a three-note maximum sequence.

Is this something we have any science on yet? Still loving this site years later.

#2

Here’s what it looks like when I experiment with the movement.

#3

You’re using your wrist and forarm for each stroke and shortening the stroke length with your fingers.

There are not three actions here, unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying.

If this was a genuine three action sequence you’d be able to move this across the strings just as fast. What I’m seeing is you shortening the double action wrist/forarm with your fingers to play tighter.

If you try drag this across all strings it’s going to be limited by your double action wrist forarm movement. This is like saying if you put a magnet infront of you with a magnet in your hands, you’ll move forward, ignoring the fact the magnet infront of you is still connected to you.

What this does allow is a double escape motion that works great for alternate picking. But honestly I’m talking from my intuition without fully understanding what you’re saying, I could be wrong I could be right.
I’m pretty sure I’m not wrong btw.

#4

I don’t think you have quite understood either what I’m saying or what you’re seeing in the video. I’ll try to rephrase it for better clarity:

The motion I’m describing is a series of three notes on a single string, played with two joint motions. In my example, I’m using the wrist for an initial downstroke; then, as soon as the pick has crossed the string, the fingers pull the pick in closer for an upstroke. The wrist motion, meanwhile, continues in the same direction, carrying the pick across the string for another downstroke.

During that sequence, the wrist only moves in one direction, and the fingers also only move in one direction (the opposite direction to the wrist motion).

In the video demonstration, I’m playing four notes: three on the initial string with wrist down, fingers up, wrist down, and then a fourth additional note one string higher, which I’m getting via a continuation of the same wrist deviation motion. There’s no forearm rotation mechanic at play here at all.

#5

If you look at what you’re doing in slomo you’ll see thats not true.

You’re using the wrist to play it all.

The wrist is moving back n fourth. The forarm is bound to be involved too, thats something thats hard too feel unless you know what you’re looking out for, perhaps you’re not using it, (acually i think it’s almost impossible not to use forarm rotation while staying close the strings…) but it’s definitely all wrist back n forth, your fingers are not providing the upstroke. It might feel like that, but just look at your hand in slowmo it’s obvious you’re doing a wrist upstroke… What your fingers are doing is shortening the stroke, thats it.

#6

If you’re listening to the notes to get confirmation of your strokes, don’t use ascending lines, use Decending, as ascending lines have a hammer on that will fool you. The decending requires you acually pick it. Unless you do a pull off. Something to keep in mind tho.

And reading the topic title, the reason for Yngwies or anyones finger motion, jason becker etc… is to change the pick angle, it also shortens the pick stroke, but ultimately it’s to make the pick glide over the strings. You can see it a lot if you look at jasons playing, he did it a load. It’s just pick attack and wrist stroke shortening. It’s got nothing do to with double picking.

What you’re attempting to do is falling and throwing a ball up in the sky. Thats not how gravity works, you’re both going to end up on the ground.

#7

Respectfully: what the heck are you even talking about? There’s no hammer-on being used here—my fretting hand wasn’t even touching the strings when I filmed that. It was holding my phone to record the video.

#8

Saying if you are.

You’re using your wrist.

#9

I don’t know if there is that much known, in detail, about finger and thumb interaction with other joint motions.

You do see it often though. In the Marty Friedman interview, it seems to be a significant addition to his mechanics.

I’m interested to know more on this topic.

#10

pretty sure it’s to angle the pick for a smoother escape.

#11

Made a new demonstration on how I believe these joint motions interact!

When I play around with it, it feels very sweep-y when moving it from string to string–the hard part isn’t getting the notes fast (even unreasonably fast), but rather making sure that the timing of the notes stays consistent and smooth. Definitely fun to work with.

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#12

Here’s a great explanation of a way to work with this mechanic:

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#13

The issue is you’re literally coming to a dead end. You can use the fingers to throw something against gravity as I said before

And then what?

What you’re ultimately doing is shortening your wrist strokes. Thats it, you’re not getting a free lunch, you’re not picking three times with two movements. Try play even the most basic string change with this technique, play two strings with this triple stroke…

This is just shortening the wrists movement, Notice at no time in your drawing does the line break 90 degrees.

And the final stroke you did dragged the paper. Thats not 90 degrees, the paper being dragged by your hand changed its angle, not your finger stroke.

#14

The finger motion in anyone’s technique is all about shortening the wrist stroke and angling the pick for a smoother escape. I’m utterly confident in this. I know this.

#15

I remember that thread.

Respectfully, I have to ask. What consitutes “faster-than-expected” here? The wrist, forearm and elbow are all capable of tremendous speed already.

I think the effort to devise clever sequences of distinct joint movements in the hope of achieving something faster than a simpler alternating cycle is probably misguided. I would imagine that coordinations associated to the various sequences would be difficult to train due to secondary functions of the antagonist muscles involves. Even if achievable, I’d suspect the coordinations would be highly context specific, meaning a very low return on investment.

It would seem to me a better approach to multiple joint motion is to first understand which motions are compatible based on the primary and secondary functions of the muscles involved. For example, extensor carpi ulnaris has secondary function in pronation, so ulnar extension would be naturally compatible with the pronation phase of a forearm rotation movement. Or, biceps brachii is both a forearm supinator and an elbow flexor, meaning the supination phase of a forearm rotation movement would be naturally compatible with the flexion stage of an elbow movement.

Then, learn to coordinate compatible coordinations as the basic cyclic picking action. These combinations might complement each other, facilitating actions not impossible for either joint in isolation. Alternatively, these combinations might compound with one another, where both movements facilitate similar actions and where the combinations offers greater robustness and reliability.

I’m well aware that there are players who achieve excellent results with thumb/finger movements (and there are plenty of players pursuing those forms), I can do thumb/finger action quite quickly, and I don’t think thumb/finger movement has any uniquely special advantage over other joint movements for picking fast. It’s always nice to have more tools available and it can give a softer articulation in combination with legato (which is nice), but I don’t see any particular reason to pursue it over other forms.

It can also add length to the stroke, providing greater range of motion.

#16

But it will never add another genuine pick stroke.

We’ll never be as cool as this guy

image

Steve…

#17

That’s my position also. Even if it is possible, if it’s limited to three notes or not more capable than other forms, I see no reason to pursue it.

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#18

I have to be a bit subjective here, and say “faster than you would expect the notes to occur, given the feeling of ‘slower’ movement.”

There are several things I’m NOT claiming, to be sure:
-I’m not saying that this is fastER than any given single-joint movement
-I’m not saying that it’s necessary for any particular technical or musical purpose
-I’m not saying finger motion has any particular unique quality, even in the limited context of the motion I’m describing

All I’m suggesting is that, maybe, this is the mechanical action that’s going on when we see Yngwie (for example) do volcano-style runs, and could help explain why his ability to do those sequences seems to reach a speed he falls short of on even single-string sequences.

I’m not forcing anybody to try it! It’s not green eggs and ham. It’s just a fun picking idea. But just personally, I’m not satisfied with “it’ll never work” as a first-resort, and I can’t see for the life of me how it doesn’t add a new pick stroke.

#20

I don’t recall the original thread from a few years ago, but some drumming techniques work this way:

The difference here compared to what you’re suggesting is that both motions happen simultaneously. The initial drum hit is done by one joint or joint combination — wrist or wrist-elbow, usually. As this happens, the fingers open, but don’t produce a drum hit. After the first hit, as the first joints are returning to their starting positions, the fingers close and trigger the second drum hit. You can see this clearly in slow motion in the clip.

The benefit of this is that both joints are moving half as fast as the drum hits. If you’re playing sixteenths, the actual joint motions are only eights so the technique feels slow.

Single-stroke drumming motions use one complete round-trip motion per drum hit. The return trip isn’t used. So singles are analogous to “all downstrokes” on guitar, whereas double strokes, which ingeniously use the return trip for the second hit, are analogous to alternate picking — just with two different joints.

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#21

You’ve just described what many drum tutors cannot :sweat_smile: and what’s funny about it, is it really is that straightforward. Double stroke rolls were my Everest for a couple of years!

Anyway, back on topic!