Questions on how to practice using chunking

Playing Technique
#13

No idea where you are, @cthom02, developmentally. So this may not apply to you. But I’d add that Troy has a left hand and a right hand that can each handle 240bpm. The ingredients were all on the table; he just needed to mix them and bake the cake, so to speak.

But… If your left isn’t there yet, then ‘forcing speed’ is not going to help. At least as I currently understand things. You can’t cook without ingredients. Again, this may not apply to you, but where I’m at developmentally, I think it’s very important to understand that the starting point for a skilled player learning a new motion is not my starting point.

Still struggling with this. Well, back to the Tommo 6s etude now…:wink:

#14

Hey Yaakov! Glad you like my etude so much - but I hope you are trying other things as well. Variety is key - ask me how I know :wink:

This may be going a bit off topic (we can split later if needed) - but why do you think you don’t have enough speed in the left hand?

We discussed in some other thread, I think @PickingApprentice brought it up, that most people probably have all the speed they need to being with, for both hands.

E.g. if you take your left hand and tap your fingers on a table in this order:

pinky - ring - middle - index,

trying to achieve a 16th note feel, how fast can you go? I bet it’s pretty fast! (Don’t worry if the rhythm is a bit imprecise, it’s more of a big picture thing)

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#15

Sounds like this video is for you:

If you have further questions on this topic, feel free to post in another thread, i.e. just to keep this on topic.

#16

Hope this is relevant to the OP (think so…) I think I do, in fact. Maybe the better way to say it is that I lack coordination in the left. That’s my point: if you’re not yet capable of fretting at shred speed, then despite the fact that you have a healthy left hand that can pass table-top tests, you lack the coordination necessary in the left to ‘start-with-speed.’

We’ve been talking about chunking on the forum lately as an issue of landmark notes. That’s certainly true, and helpful. But another aspect of chunking is what happens between those landmark notes. I’m getting to where I can reel-off your Sixes thing, left-hand only, at around 90bpm - not fast enough for my goal, but I think it’s improving. But it’s been a lot of work to get it there. That’s the part of chunking that’s a long, slow grind.

As always, open to disagreement. But that’s how I see things today. Hope @cthom02 is getting something from this and I’m not hijacking the thread. But since the OP seems to be about chunking as something you practice (which I’ve posted on elsewhere myself), it seems to me germane.

#17

Out of interest, is this all ascending or descending? One thing to think about when getting the fretting hand ready for picking is that when picking, you don’t need pull-offs. Pull-offs require that extra effort to ‘twang’ the string so are more difficult than hammer-ons. If you stick to chunks that exclusively use hammer-ons for legato, I imagine that you will stand a better chance at getting them up to speed more quickly abd then adding the picking.

#18

Great points from Yaakov and PickingApprentice for @cthom02 – make sure you chunk practice your left hand as well. And if you’re working on consistency, practicing hands separately can be useful – do fretting only, no picking, up to and even far past your target tempo. “Far past” is good, b/c when you combine the hands, you’re doing more complex brain-work and nervous-system-work, so it stands that each hand should be able to go faster when working on its own. Give this a shot, see if it feels fun and productive! z

Re hammers-only: yes, I’d recommend working on hammers only, both descending and ascending. Descending hammers is tough but it’s vital, especially when you start really going fast.

#19

The etude is strict econ picking - no HOs/POS. Of course as I practice it left-hand only, there’s a bit of PO effect. Truth is, tough, I’m not doing proper pull-offs - more like ‘lift-offs’ (i.e. the way you’re not supposed to pull-off). That’s deliberate, and for the reason you mention, @PickingApprentice .

It’s not like I can’t run the pattern at all. I’m just not able to do it fast enough. I know we’re all past the idea of massive repetition for developing the right hand (because with the right, it’s not a reps issue, it’s a mechanical issue - i.e. learn how to single-escape). But for the left hand, w/plain, straight-up fretting, it seems to me that massive rep is the only way.

Again, this is my theory; I’m glad to hear other views. I just think it’s critical to make the distinction between needing to learn a technique and needing to do something a gillion times. If you mix and match, you’re in trouble… @cthom02 - is this in fact relevant to your situation?

#20

@Yaakov I believe this is definitely relevant, since it relates to one of my fundamental questions about whether or not you can develop consistency by repeating something over and over again. It seems like the answer lies in how you practice the repetition, running through a complete lick at slow speeds over and over again without any attempt to chunk it doesn’t seem to help in my experience. You guys have all been providing great input even if it doesn’t directly relate to my question.

@jzohrab thanks for the suggestion about practicing each hand separately! I’ll definitely try that as well and see if it helps me out.

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#21

Glad to hear we’ve kept your thread on track:)

At the risk of asking you to repeat yourself (maybe you already answered this and I missed it, but) - why not?..

#22

In my experience it doesn’t seem to improve my ability to consistently execute said licks up to speed. It may help in the beginning stages of learning a new lick when you’re just memorizing the notes, but for me it doesn’t seem to help much after that. I spent many hours over the course of several months doing this kind of practice with several fast licks from Cliffs of Dover and I’ve still only been able to play them properly and up to speed around 50% of the time. It seems like my brain (and hands) get confused quite often when I try and play through something long and fast at full speed (without chunking) and tends to lead to my right hand locking up in the middle of a lick or my hand synchronization falling apart.

#23

I thought this video on chunking was AWESOME. @Yaakov found it and shared it. It seriously changed the way I practice.

https://forum.troygrady.com/t/jason-sulliman-on-starting-with-not-working-up-to-fast

This would be when you already know the notes and all required movements. In my experience, it’s helped tremendously with hand sync but also on reminding the hands to stay relaxed.

#24

Is the etude on the forum somewhere?

#25

That’s funny; I’d almost forgotten I posted that! I didn’t have as much success with it as you, apparently, but I admit that that’s quite possibly because of this next point regarding repetition…

So there’s a popular YT guitarist out there, the guy can really rip, and he posted something about metronome. But he admitted that no great players probably ever did what he was suggesting to do. Likewise, in another video he did recommending a no-guitar hand exercise, I was thinking, this is another thing I doubt any solid player ever did. But…

In another vid, he got pretty passionate talking about building speed, and claimed that without massive repetition, he would never have achieved his present level. Hours and hours running patterns in front of the t.v., etc. That struck me as likely; he’s not the only one who says so.

But I’m raising this because of something else this guy said… A lot of people come back to him and say it’s not working. So then he has to emphasize the ‘massive’ part of massive repetition. Not a ‘lot,’ or ‘for months,’ but many thousands upon thousands of times. Like a crazy amount.

I can’t claim to have experienced this - but I’m trying to;) Because right now, it’s the only thing that makes sense to me regarding the training of the left hand to fret through a given pattern fast.

You mention having worked a lot on Cliffs of Dover licks. Not to put you on the spot, @cthom02, but in the interest of science;)… Did you run them to the point where you could hold a conversation while playing them repeatedly?

(…that’s the definition of “massive” rep)

#26

I have never been able to talk and play anything at the same time (even campfire chords). I doubt I’ll ever be able to do that…

#27

Don’t give up so easily. Let’s play our licks a million or so times first and see;)

#28

Been there … done that! Still no talking/singing for me!!

#29

I haven’t gotten to the point where I could hold a conversation while playing virtually any fast picking lick. Usually I only work on that skill if it’s something that I’m playing and singing over. I definitely agree with your point about how a lot of great players talk about repeating things in front of the TV, but does it really take years to get a handful of licks to the point where you would be comfortable playing them live? I can’t imagine that it should take longer than I’ve been working on some of these licks, which is what leads me to believe that it’s an error in how I’ve been practicing as opposed to me simply not putting in enough time. I also can’t really imagine that most players focus exclusively on a handful of licks for hundreds of hours to get comfortable playing them, since most of these guys are good at such a wide array of other things on the guitar. Thanks for the added input though!

Does anyone else have any experience with “massive” reps leading to consistent fast playing?

#30

I think the massive reps leads to the consistency, but as @Yaakov and the general CtC forum has beat to death, it won’t develop good technique on its own.

I did the Erotomania riff over and over, around the 1:20 or so mark I feel warm and just beat the riff to death:

#31

What kind of repetition do you use when practicing? Do you just run through a given lick slowly and emphasize accuracy or do you practice it in chunks? Sorry I can’t watch the video to see at the moment

#32

@cthom02 slowly to memorize it and warm up, then i switch to the actual speed to find the issue parts and work on them, usually by chunking the transitions into and out of the “hard part”.

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