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Technique Critique
#4

Hi Johannes,

I think I do feel myself getting trapped but have so far chalked it up to lack of practice with this technique because of what Troy Said in the post Joe referenced. Joe had mentioned in that post that he thought I should (pronate? supinate?) my forearm to bring the thumb side of my hand down to the bridge (assuming I understood that correctly). I do like that idea of giving myself a more neutral pickslant so I have played with that idea a bit but have struggled for various reasons.

Troy says my method should be good, I think because there are people who use it well. However, I’m wondering if bringing my thumb side down would make playing cleanly easier or if it really is important to use the technique that feels most natural and build off that.

#5

Right, I did recommend some pronation so that your pick would be flatter, or even upward slanting. I think that should be ignored in light of what Troy suggested. My thought process was this misconception that elbow and USX can’t coexist. We’ve heard many times they are typically at odds with each other, but apparently there are exceptions. Troy says what you’re doing is ok and cited players who can do this, so I can’t argue. My suggestion was to coax you into a more natural DSX posture since that’s what I thought was the only thing you could do with your elbow mechanic. Troy and Tommo say you’re getting a clean USX in the first clip you posted in your original critique, which I think was your fastest playing too. Can you feel anything different about the clip you posted in this thread compared to that original one?

#6

That makes sense but since I’m basically starting fresh, I’m wondering which is better/easier. Just because they can coexist doesn’t mean that’s the method I should be using. I’ve kind of been doing both and pronating the forearm does seem to prevent some stumbling points but has me starting at a slower top speed.

I think the clip I posted here is mostly using the same mechanics as the one (with elbow movement) from my original post but I really need to be warmed up to not stumble in certain areas which is one reasons I’m working on pronating the forearm as well. I really think the forearm pronation has a lot of potential, it’s just a matter of retraining my subconscious.

#7

For sure. Just be aware that if pronating you’ll likely end up in a posture that works best with DSX, so you’ll need to make sure you’re playing things that change strings after a downstroke, rather than an upstroke like the clip you posted here. I think the reason Troy and Tommo told you to go for it with your elbow and USX is because it was your fastest motion. From what I understand (which we know is often not correct lol), fast + controlled = good. Whatever motion you’re using to achieve this, run with it. If you want to learn others, at least you’ll have a reference point.

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#8

Ah, ok! Yes, I have, but it completely slipped my mind!

#9

Yes, I’ve read through the other thread now. And yes, like I said – it does look pretty good! But if it doesn’t feel smooth enough, perhaps something can be improved.

(Troy did say “You should always question me”… :slight_smile:)

All in all, I don’t think you should keep yourself from practising this technique, it definitely has potential!

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#10

My next question might belong in its own post (please let me know if that’s the case) but it’s related so I want to start here. When pronating my forearm and doing other things to improve my pick hand, I’m really struggling to do these things without consciously focusing on them. I assume I just need to keep consciously forcing myself to do it but do you know if there are any tricks to getting something like that into your subconscious habits quicker?

#11

I’d love to know the answer to this too! I don’t know if having played guitar a certain way for over 2 decades makes it worse or not, but when I try learning a new movement I quickly see the old habits creeping back in. Usually I don’t notice this by feel either, it will happen when I look at my pick hand to double check. Or in the case of mechanic drivers, if I’m working on a wrist movement and going fast, before I know it my elbow starts helping out again. Honestly I’ve struggled with this my whole career. The more I learn about myself, the more I chalk it up to me having horrible sensory perception.

Sorry for the rant, that hits really close to home with me though. I think you should make a thread with this exact question because while it’s related to this topic, others might struggle with it too. I’d just advise some due diligence (on both of our parts - I’ll help since I’m interested) and make sure this hasn’t been addressed already. The forum has a really great search function…time to think of some key terms that would aid.

Lastly, I’ve heard in many of Troy’s videos as well as forum posts that learning a new motion is sometimes best aided by changing a variety of factors such as pick grip, motion mechanic, pick type/thickness etc. Changing more factors I think helps us lock into what exactly feels different about the new thing we’re working on.

#12

Sounds good, I did do a search on subconscious before posting here but I’ll try a more thorough search before posting a new thread :slight_smile:

funny thing… because of the forearm pronation, I have to focus on curling my index finger more so that my fingernail doesn’t hit the strings after a few seconds of playing. I’m also trying to change my pick grip so that it doesn’t rotate and point toward the headstock on me or just slip out of my hand in general. Hopefully you’re right and focusing on all three is helping to burn each one into my subconscious faster (sure doesn’t feel like it though lol).

#13

Hey Guys,

I’ve been working on pronating my forearm and it seems to be working well for the CTC Solo lick I originally posted in this thread. However, I’m working on an At Vance song (“No Speak” ambitious, I know) and there’s a descending lick that’s got me stuck at a super slow speed. I originally assumed it’s because it’s 3 notes per string and I’m not doing any sweeping. So I recorded to see and it looks to me like I’m angling the pick correctly to escape after my downstrokes.

Am I right and I really just need to practice practice practice, or does it look more like hopping and I should be starting on an upstroke for every string?

#14

Hey @SomeDudeOnline! To be honest I don’t see a big difference in pronation/supination between your first video and this last one: I can see pretty much the same amount of “this part of the arm” (don’t know the name :slight_smile: - forearm underside?). It may be that the second video is slightly less supinated but it still looks supinated.

image

In terms of motion, I have the impression that the motion in the last video is not that efficient, while the motion of the first video is fast and efficient. The impression is confirmed by the fact that you feel a strong speed limitation.

Actually you can test this for yourself: can you hit the desired target speed right now, even if it’s super sloppy? If the answer is “yes”, then good, practice the lick more in this way. if the answer is “no”, then the motion is probably inefficient and you gotta find an efficient motion that gets you immediately to the “fast and sloppy” stage for this particular line.

On the plus side - you can definitely use your USX motion of the opening post to play this line with the “down-up-pulloff” strategy.

#15

It feels like a big difference to me but after grabbing a couple snapshots and putting them side by side, I agree, it’s a small change. I think part of that is just that I forgot to really focus on keeping it down but just now, I was looking while playing and I can definitely tell that part of my arm could go down more. The problem is muting the strings. At the point that this part of my arm completely pronates, I lose the ability to palm mute.

Not really, I can speed up with it being sloppy but I don’t think I can get the desired speed.

This is something I don’t want to do. I’ve always used hammer-ons and pull-offs to cheat and get to the desired speed but I’ve always been able to hear the difference and of course, I just know that it’s not the same. The thing is, I don’t know what motion is correct for this line (basically any three note per string thing). There’s economy/sweep picking but that’s always felt super unnatural and then there’s pronating my arm even more but then I lose the ability to palm mute.

#16

I think it’s a tough pattern because as you mentioned, it’s 3NPS and one slant/escape won’t cut it the whole way through. Immediately what comes to mind is the cool “Jimmy Page Lick” that @tommo nailed. Reposting this from somewhere else on the forum:

This isn’t all 3NPS obviously but the escapes in both directions where needed should apply to that world too I think.

The other thing that comes to mind is the possibility to introduce some swiping. Al Di Meola gets by a lot of his fast 3NPS with swiping.

#17

After reviewing my recent video before posting, that’s what I thought I was doing and was hoping I just needed to further develop it. Watching at .25 speed with the player, I thought I was escaping the downstrokes by changing the slant of my pick. However, I can’t tell if it’s a small slant/escape motion or just odd hopping lol.

Regarding swiping, I’m kind of leaning on that as a last resort. I know that some folks do it so well that you can hardly tell (if at all) as a listener, but as the player, I’m pretty sure it’ll throw me off because I’ll hear and feel it so it’ll always be sloppy to me. That’s the best case scenario, worst case is I’m not able to do it nearly as well as the pros and everyone else can hear the obvious swiping too lol.

I think I’ll spend some time today and try to get a better feel of what my sloppy speed limit is for the more recent video I posted (unless you say that the escape from my downstrokes when switching strings is actually hopping instead). I’m hesitant to really trust the sloppy speed limit idea though because my sloppy speed limit for sweeping is zero. I either play it incredibly slow but clean or try to play fast and completely lose it at the first string change.

#18

I understand your concern. I think it’s worth pursuing though as another arrow in the quiver. From my experience with it, it’s more about the left hand. Michael Angelo advocates (in general) having the fretting hand index finger mute the string directly above/below the one you’re playing. This can cause issues if you’re index finger is over a fret where there is a strong harmonic, like the 12th, because that will sound sloppy. The note that is swiped must be completely dead. The easiest way to deaden a note that intended for muting but falls on a harmonic is to use one extra finger to mute. For example if you play a harmonic on 12 but also lay your pinky on 15 of that string, it will deaden that harmonic. Is this always possible at shred speeds? Probably not, but something to be aware of. Full disclosure I love swiping :slight_smile: Probably since my playing tends to be so trapped anyway lol!

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#19

Is this the pronation that we’re looking for? If not, then I think I have a big misunderstand of what it is or maybe it’s just the lighting because any farther and my pick can’t reach the strings enough to play. If it is the pronation we’re looking for, is there a way to palm mute that I’m missing or does this style really rely on muting with the left hand?

#20

Absolutely, this is more pronated. Look at how the palm heel on the thumb side now has contact with the strings, compared to the air gap in the earlier videos.

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#21

Cool! Even if I can’t mute the way I want, I think I’ll practice this technique a bunch just so that I have it in my arsenal. Hopefully it’ll come in handy at some point :slight_smile:

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#22

Hmmm I need to dig up some Al Di Meola vids and take a look at his positioning. He of course palm mutes a ton (always??? lol!). Maybe he’s supinated lightly or something. I know he’s DSX and that pronation puts you in the posture naturally, but I also have heard Troy say a bunch of times that Andy Wood and Al have similarity in motion/setup and I am almost certain Andy is lightly supinated. I’ll dig around for that.

#23

I found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wHk49IFkcQ
starting around :30 looks exactly how I feel lol. No idea how he keeps it so clean though.