Regarding String Switching Difficulties

Playing Technique
#1

I have been thinking about this a bit and was wondering if anyone else could help collectively piece this together…

Rewind back to the days where CtC first introduced the idea of downward pickslanting. We learned a ton of awesome information about what many of us struggled with for so many years on the guitar. Troy broke down a ton of amazing licks and artists who utilized DWPS as their string switching strategy and we all profited from this knowledge. Then, he eventually addressed that there are some licks that switch strings after odd numbers of pickstrokes that were not able to be played with DWPS or UPWS alone. This is when the notion of 2WPS was introduced. Troy broke down artists like Batio and Paul Gilbert and showed how they switch their pickslants depending on their licks to prevent being trapped in the strings. Troy also mentions many times that these slanting movements are not just “nice things to have,” but rather they are necessary to be able to even play these licks at all. Great.

Now, Troy also explains that, while obviously many players have a primary slant and only switch to the opposite slant when necessary, once these two way movements are learned one does not really feel the difference between the two or that one is harder than the other. He plays the Gilbert lick starting on both an upstroke and downstroke and alternates between them mentioning that you really cannot feel the difference between them or that one is easier than the other.

With all that being said, how then do so many of these players, ones who can employ these 2wps at high speeds, still claim that they find one string change easier than another. Wouldn’t their ability to facilitate these string changes at high speeds mean that they are proficient with 2wps being that this is supposedly the only way they can be played at this speed? And wouldn’t this proficiency then lend itself to the same conclusion Troy came to which is that 2wps eliminates any difficulties switching strings after any number of pickstrokes? Why then, do we see for example a guy like Petrucci who flat out states in Rock Discipline his preference for outside picking and that he feels it is easier. However, he then goes through a fast inside picking drill that he says he likes to work on for this reason, and it is clear that he has no problem at all doing it. Paul Gilbert and Steve Morse mention this too, but then they go on to play these types of licks at the same speed as the oppposite pickstrokes they’re comfortable with and without messing up. I get the idea that maybe swiping could have something to do with preferring outside string changes, but these guys can all play inside picking licks incredibly well, as well as their outside licks. Are we to assume that every single outside string change must be a swipe for them then? Of course not. Wouldn’t the fact that they can achieve these movements correctly in and of themselves eliminate this preference and perceived difference according to the way they were presented here in CtC?

I get that players who cannot play these things or make these movements feel one way or the other about a preferential string change, but I’m just wondering why this is something that players who can already achieve this seem to still perceive as different and harder when the fact that they can do them in the first place according to the rules of pickslanting would eliminate this feeling.

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#2

Nobody have any thoughts on this matter?

#4

Are you asking “why do people have preferences”? I think the answer is… because they do!

If I had to guess why these types of questions tend not to get answered quickly, or as much, it’s because they’re not as practical. If you’re trying to play something and having trouble, show us the video, outline the trouble you’re having, we’ll do our best to check it out.

Otherwise, I would really try not to worry too much about the theory of things. Play the lines you want to play, and use one of the many movements we’ve outlined to do it. There are more than enough of them!

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#5

If I had to guess, I’d say it’s more of a psychological thing than an actual physical hurdle. Obviously, there once was a time that a particular technique was difficult for them, and they somehow got it burned into their brain that that particular movement is difficult and it just stuck. Even after years of practice have corrected this, their brain probably just has a hard time letting go of that limiting belief.
I know from my experience, all of my biggest breakthroughs in ability have been mental. It’s a matter of continuously telling myself that I can do this and I can do it easily. Sure practicing the movements is just as important, but if you get it stuck in your head that something is really difficult, then it will continue to be.

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#6

@TheDivineSage touched upon my point a little bit. What I am getting at is not why one may have a preference (totally understandable) but rather the very fact that some of these high level 2wps players perceive one way of switching strings as more difficult should not necessarily exist if we are to assume that their very ability to execute said difficult passage with ease is a testament to it not really being difficult at all (or feeling any different than the movement that they perceive as easier, for that matter). I’m going based off of the way that Troy broke down the feeling of achieving 2wps in past videos. I am wondering why a player who is obviously incredibly proficient in 2wps would say that for example inside string changes always mess them up and they feel stuck in the strings. Wouldn’t this feeling only arose in those who haven’t figured out how to perform 2wps? Unless these players are performing stringhopping somehow at these high speeds (which should not be possible) their execution of these licks requires 2wps, and therefore the inside and outside changes should in theory not feel any different, especially at their level of proficiency.

It’s just a bit confusing when one separates the idea of a preference (which is fine and to be expected) from a perceived difference in ability to execute (which should not exist by the very fact they can execute it). If one player has a preference because, for example, they simply learned said lick starting a downstroke and therefore most of the string changes were outside then that would make sense. However, with practice they should in theory be able to perform these licks starting on an upstroke if given time because the 2wps movements are the same only reversed. So all things equal, if you gave say John Petrucci the Gilbert lick and gave him an equal amount of time to practice it starting on both and up and downstroke, why still would he state that one way feels easier. When Troy performs this lick in the Gilbert video, he switches the pickstroke and says that when one grasps this idea, there’s really no difference in feel or difficulty. Why then would guys like Gilbert, JP, Morse still express that there is?

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#7

All the players you mention have markedly different arm and hand setups, pick grips, and so on. Why should everything feel exactly the same to them? That seems extreme. As an example, in the Antigravity seminar we look extensively at MAB’s use of swiping. It is clear that he prefers to swipe some string changes and two-way pickslant others, and it is clear that his primary up orientation affects this choice. Same thing with Al DiMeola. Without getting derailed into the weeds on mechanics, it is clearly easier for these players to play this way, so they do. That’s really it. Could they do otherwise? I’m sure. But they don’t even know they’re doing any of these things. All they know is that it sounds good, so they keep doing it.

Again, the issue here is practical. Are you having trouble playing a line? What is the line? Can you get that line with a little legato and maybe a fingering change, and god forbid not even picking every note? If so, go for it. The player that does that will end up with way more musical skill over the same period of time.

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#8

Very interesting thread. I think there is a massive difference between finding something more difficult to the point where you cannot play it (where I live most of the time) and the Petrucci and Gilbert dudes that feel its harder but can still blaze away. Its like football (soccer for the US) -you have a dominant foot (right foot in this example) that is more adept than the other. Now some players work really hard to improve their skill with the;left leg to the point that it appears to spectators that they can use both equally - but that same player wouldn’t dream of using their left leg to take a penalty kick to win the world cup! Their right leg is better and easier to use.

I wonder Petrucci watched CTC back in the day or even now, they maybe able to adjust their motion mechanic to the point where it does feel the same! My instinct is that they would still have the same issue.

I think this has merit.

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#9

Yes for sure. I get how someone like myself who is not an expert player definitely feels these difficulties but only when referring to movements that I am unable to make. For example, I am a DWPS player almost exclusively. I can play any dwps lick with no resistance regardless of whether the lick starts on an upstroke or downstroke. I can also do odd numbered note grouping on outside string changes with swiping (ex: Spanish Fly style lines). Additionally, I can throw in some upward sweeps for little things when I need them however UPWS is extremely uncomfortable for me no matter how much I practice it. I have been using this dwps style for over 15 years now so after many failed attempts at 2wps I’ve kind of said forget it and focused on my strengths. There were days where 2wps clicked a bit and then I’d lose it, so in that regard I personally understand a preference for certain string changes, but that is mostly due to me not being able to do it efficiently anyway. Within the realm of my expertise (dwps) I don’t find any certain line or pickstroke harder or easier than another. This is why I simply wondered for guys who’s realm of expertise is 2wps, why it would be any different.

I did fool around a bit with crosspicking and out an example of trying to figure it out on one of these threads at one point. However I’ve come to the conclusion that I need to stop trying to be a jack of all trades and simply fully master dwps and just make awesome songs with it. There are enough great crosspickers and 2wps already out there and so I figure I might as well double down on my strengths and not spend much time trying to learn these licks that I could essentially recreate with dwps close enough that nobody listening would notice or care. Anyway, I just find this topic interesting.

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#10

I believe there is a mental component that can transcend pure mechanics. For example, consider a 3NPS ascending run, just going straight up a scale in triplets. Now play the same exact thing but think in 4’s instead of 3’s. Even not worrying about accenting 1’s, just the fact that I’m thinking 4’s makes it harder.

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#11

Yes! I get the same thing with looping ascending 6s with 16ths - so much harder! I am now trying to push through the mental block in the hope that it gives me picking super powers! Haha!

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#12

I always find it easier phrasing in 4s even if it’s a 3/6 note per string thing.

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#13

Outside picking doesn’t require 2WPS as you can swipe it- you don’t have to rotate your Pickslant back and forth. Thus it is a one way pickslanfing luck- either only Down or only Up. This means the pick path is a straight back and forth movement. Whatever their motion mechanic is.

Inside picking does require 2WPS. This requires another movement on top of their already existing motion mechanic.

2WPS is harder than 1WPS. The more movements you add the more complex something is.

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#14

I’m not sure 2WPS is harder - it depends on the person. Sure you have to get the motion mechanic right for 2WPS, but after that it grants you freedom to pretty much do what you want and is for me, less mentally taxing than the yngwie/johnson systems with ‘escape hatch’ slides and pull-offs to think about (as much as I would love to be able to do it). As for swiping, I’m trying to steer clear of it as much as possible as my results are so varied with it. I may have to knuckle down with it at some point as I’m sure I will need it when hitting the top limit of my playing.

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#15

My guess is that with the slant we shed light on one of many components in a very complex scenario.
I personally have a hard time with inside string changes, especially when playing them out of context.
My self analysis tells me that the main problem is tracking.
When outside switching the pickstroke and the track are basically one motion, that seems to be my ‘natural’ approach. When switching inside the tracking motion goes in the opposite direction than the picking motion, that feels alien to me, it works fine in some context scenarios but it’s definitely not something that I can call as I want.
I’m pretty sure there are players feeling it the other way round (natural economy pickers should I’d say).

In addition I’m pretty sure the the pick itself gives you some kind of curve when passing the string that works with or against your escape motion.

All this and probably some more ingredients have more or less impact on personal preferences, it’s no wonder we all have different preferences and I think that’s cool, it’s just one (of probably many) points that makes sure we all sound different.

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