The latest updates for the RDT motion tutorial are fantastic, so I recommend anyone who hasn’t looked at it in a bit to check it out again. It’s extremely well thought out in detailing the acquisition, and honing, of the technique, in part because this is a relatively-new technique for Troy himself, I’d say. There’s lots of details that might have been overlooked had he been using it for thirty years or whatever. It’s all very cool.
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There is no single answer to this! Especially in your case. Because…
If I remember correctly, after a lot of experimentation, the best motion you stumbled across — by a wide margin in terms of performance — is the one Dallas Toler-Wade is doing here at the 50-second mark:
It’s cool to see someone do this out there in the wild, because to date I’ve really only seen John Taylor play this way up close. And then of course you stumbled across the same motion. In both cases the performance is awesome.
If this is the technique you’re still experimenting with, we actually don’t have a set of step-by-step instructions for this yet. This would be “Dart Thrower” and we just haven’t started that section yet. Just visually, you can see that the positioning he’s using is pretty radically different from the John McLaughlin / Andy Wood Technique, and for that matter from the “death metal” reverse dart techniques that we profile in our YouTube video, which Dallas himself also uses and is great at. So I wouldn’t try to apply any of the information about positioning in our latest tutorials to this technique.
That said, you were already sounding great with this. So I’d also be wary in changing anything about it in general, because of “fixing what ain’t broke” reasons!
Is that still the motion you’re using?
Since the cat’s out of the bag, we have * four * new lessons in this section as of this week, plus some key updates to the other existing lessons. In total it’s 10 lessons and forms a pretty comprehensive sequence for learning the most common reverse dart motions.
The sequence includes detailed, step-by-step instructions for doing the Andy Wood / McLaughlin “small mouse” motions, the middle-finger grip “tall mouse” motion, and the trailing edge extreme speed “tall mouse” motion:
Small mouse + middle finger tutorial:
Trailing edge extreme speed tutorial:
Then we have two new lessons on increasing speed and endurance, with ample slow-motion closeups showing what happens when motions go wrong as I try, and often fail, to reach higher speeds! These subjects have a history of being a little “woo woo”, with questionable analogies to gym training and the like. To cut through that, I demonstrate 220 bpm and 230 bpm McLaughlin motion with the Magnet. In the slow motion footage you can see exactly what is happening and why things can’t go faster:
Finally, we made some key updates to this pick grip chapter based on TC feedback, to make it more obvious exactly what I’m doing to make the arm position as “tall mouse” as possible:
These grip details probably depend on individual finger and hand geometry. So you may not actually need to do any of this at all, based on your initial tests. I discuss this in the lesson.
On a related note, the reverse dart techniques profiled in these lessons all have very specific positioning. So the tips we provide won’t necessarily relate at all to other motions you’re trying to learn — even other wrist motions. Original dart throwers, we’ll get to you eventually!
If you’re still working on basic wrist motion, let us know if any of this is helpful. Feel free to post general questions here, but please don’t outline the whole sequence on the forum — I think we’ve been very generous with the YouTube lesson already.
For more specific feedback on your playing, definitely make a platform TC — we’d love to help!
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So, actually I have lots of great news since the last time we “spoke” !
I’m not really using that DT motion so much. But-- finding it and then getting your positive feedback about it totally cracked the code for me! At first I was really frustrated, thinking “how am I going to ever put this weird motion to any practical use?”…but then I just started thinking about how it sounded and how it felt-- and I made those things the #1 focus of any other motion I tried, and what do you know-- I can do all kinds of other motions now. Like you told me, I just needed to feel what ‘fast’ feels like and then I can re-create it in a number of different settings.
For me, I think the biggest thing was learning to look for the smoothest pick attack across the string in both directions. Ironing out the garage spikes. I know that’s CTC 101, but apparently I didn’t take it seriously enough. So that’s why I was asking about your angle of attack for the tapping motion. Because I think I can make my hand move that way, I just need a smooth pathway to do it.
I still use that JT motion sometimes when I just want a quick bit of tremolo that I know I can count on.
But also shortly after I learned that motion, I figured out that I can do the EVH forearm rotational tremolo really well. That joint has always naturally moved really fast for me, but I had never really tried seriously applying it to picking. But it turns out I just needed to work on it for a few days and then I could really get it going fast and smooth, increasingly on-command. Now I’m working on flattening it out so I can rest my hand on the bridge and palm mute ala Nuno. It’s probably becoming a different motion now…I guess it’s technically FW…but the twitchy feeling motion is the common element that’s letting me do it.
I know you advise against trying to master too many different motions at once, but honestly since I’ve been having so much success with experimentation lately, I want to continue searching for the one that’s going to suit me the best.
I can kinda do something similar to your tapping motion, but I still kinda need to be more vertical where I’m actually tapping against the body after hitting the string. It’s kinda like a rest stroke! Yours looks a bit more angled across than straight into the body. I mean I’m less supinated in other words but I wanna try and do what you’re doing because the speed of it is insane!
I was wondering if you feel a lot of contact with the side of your middle finger sliding against the string?
To be honest, I wasn’t before. But I damn sure am now. It’s putting me quite a few steps back on what I initially came here for but I think the benefits might outweigh it…
…and by that I mean specifically these 2 videos. If I’m understanding these videos correctly (I’ll be deliberately vague because of:)
…this is basically the foundation of safe, long-lasting and proper picking technique, right? I have no problem dropping a ton of BPM working on it if that’s the case. I posted a video the other day that was at the tail end of long session and I didn’t realize how much I was slipping. But I did know that I was a bit fatigued. You mentioned in my TC that I use elbow, forearm and finger and these are in the way of what I think these videos are saying, correct?
And speaking of foundation, with what can be achieved in the above videos, would that make DBX, USX and DSX easier? Or at the very least, less… wasteful? It seems like that might be the case. If so, screw it! I’m on board! If I have to ostensibly start from scratch, so be it! My fear of re-injuring myself is constantly on my mind when I play, so I think it’s worth it.
BTW, if I divulged too much, feel free to delete this comment asap!!
Related to that motion used by Dallas: check out Paul Ryan of Origin. Here’s a previous post where you see him use both extreme wrist angles within a few seconds:
Excellent — yes, the first motion has that dart thrower appearance for sure, which seems to be the less common of the two.
Your recent critique was all about basic motion and my advice is still the same. For the most rapid improvement, I’d still suggesting following that checklist. Your flexed form motion is a reverse dart motion, so if you’re concerned you’re not doing the cool new thing that all the kids want to do, not to worry — you are.
Excellent — as long as you’re making progress. When in doubt, always compare your latest attempts with your earlier clips and make sure the direction you’re headed really is better, and not just newer. Be ruthlessly honest about that because it’s easy to fool yourself. Ask me how I know!
As far as your DT technique, we now have two examples in this thread that look and sound great, on top of what we already know from John Taylor. So it’s not really that unusual of a technique — it’s just a wrist motion, and possibly a pretty common one among faster players. I would see if you can get two-handed playing locked in and synchronized on pattern-based single-string phrases. Any gains you make will benefit all other techniques you want to learn down the line.
Is the wrist motion, in the forearm/wrist blends we see with Malmsteen, or with the flexed Jazz guys RDT?
I’m not sure if I’ve seen anyone who plays in those ways reach the same speed 
If it is RDT, what would likely be slowing it down compared to the Dsx wrist RDT in the latest videos?
Gypsy jazz players - starting each string with a downstroke - sometimes end up playing two consecutive downstrokes (going from a high string to a lower one) very quickly. So there has to be a mechanism which allows them to do this. If it’s RDT, then they can in fact do it very fast.
During the really fast ones i would have to see it under a microscope to see if its more of that knocking tap motion, or if it is still the turning key motion. I would guess it is still turning because they likely start very young, but again I wouldn’t want to say one way or the other. I feel as the tapping is probably faster from an economical ergonomic perspective than a slinging turn key motion. Although for myself the turning motion is much less tension at all compared to my knocking tap motion when I try to do them fast. So it is either a slightly lifted elbow turning key motion, or it is a feather swipe brush diagonal knocking tap non 9 to 3 oclock motion.
Yes I think so. I don’t know what speed differences if any exist between these techniques and why — too many variables. Igor Paspalj appears to have some forearm involved and I think we’ve seen him go in the ballpark of 240 . I’ve seen pure forearm players do tremolo at 250+ but more for tremolo.
Jimmy Rosenberg was probably the all time best at this and his motion looks a little more metal-y than the other players in terms of the fast wristyness of it.
In general, with most of these players, even very famous ones, this is usually a point of failure in the technique. Yes, you can find examples where great players do it and it sounds good. But once the tempo gets up there, most of these players can only do the motion once, i.e. one isolated downstroke, sandwiched in between other strings. And that note is likely to be played more softly, missed entirely, etc.
If nothing else the pure wrist version makes a very large motion where the attack is not compromised even when going fast, and you can do it as many times in a row as you can do alternate picking. There is almost no difference in the motion.
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This definitely is not “there” yet but I gave the new speed-form a go at 222bpm, playing a tremolo for 1.5 measures (13 total down strokes as I hit beat 3 of measure 2 once)
The thing that bugs me the most is how rusty I am at playing to the grid. I have this tendency to start early, sometimes finishing late, sometimes early, occasionally nailing it. Couple of measure below looked like this in the DAW
I’ll try to film some stuff over the weekend. I wanted to go DAW first just to make sure I wasn’t fooling myself and dropping back a subdivision to triplets or something. I’m using the trailing edge 3 finger grip, though I think I get similar results with just a normal 2 finger trailing edge grip. Gotta say, so far, I can’t imagine going much fast than this. But, it’s new. We’ll see what happens.
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I’ve been messing with this, too, and it’s a little easier for me to stay in time if I add something with the left hand, instead of just doing a single note tremolo, even just something like D C B C over and over again.
But even if you don’t want to do that and prefer to keep with tremolo, you could try starting a hair late on purpose for a bit - that might even cause you to start on time. lol
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Lol I notice the more of it I do, the closer to starting on time I get. And that’s been a historical issue for me in general (I’ve done a LOT of recording). I stopped caring and started slicing and nudging a LONG time ago haha!
Nothing but respect for Kevin Heiderich
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Is the timing coming from timing or is it because you’re trying to keep up with the tempo? Everyone will be off a little here and there. But if you find that you start early and finish late, it’s usually because you’re lagging.
When this happens I find that it’s usually because I’m just not doing the motion well enough. It’s not a timing issue, per se, it’s because I can’t hit the speed. When the motion feels fast and easy, then I don’t lag any more. i.e. You might still have timing issues, but you’re more likely to start early and finish early, or start early and finish on time. Or start late and finish late. The motion is not struggling to reach the speed.
In general, for the “death metal” version of the motion, I don’t have lag issues until I get to 250 or so. If everything is working, 250 doesn’t lag. If it’s not, I’ll have the lag issue. By comparison, I can do 220 with that technique even if it’s poor and feels like I’m trying too hard. That’s why the lagging isn’t as obvious at the slower speeds. I think that just speaks to the general efficiency of the motion.
At very fast speeds like 260-270 the lagging is more obvious. Some of the 260 clips in the lesson were actually me trying to do 270. And some of the 270 clips were actually trying to do 280. They felt very athletic, probably again not doing the motion well enough.
Yep, that all makes sense. I think I should just chalk it up to the first time I’ve tried the motion maybe? What are my chances I’m doing it 100% correct? But it couldn’t be totally incorrect either or I doubt I could even be in the ballpark of the 210+ neighborhood. Maybe!
EDIT: also I was just sort of gunning it. I’m going to give your Primer chapters another watch, guitar in hand, and make sure I’m not doing it wrong.
“Wrong” is a loaded term. There are different versions of this, perhaps with different levels of speed they can achieve. We don’t know 100% for sure what is going on. But there are only so many ways you can hold a pick and move so at some point we just have to try them and see what happens. Even still, this can be confusing and it can be easy to lose sight of what you’re trying to achieve.
With that in mind, we did a new intro for the whole section which is now live:
This came about when I was doing the motion in the air and realized that this is probably something people should see. There are lots of steps in this sequence, with various tricks we’ve come up with to help teach the technique. But at the end of the day, there is one very simple goal and it’s to learn to make the wrist motion I’m making in the air in this video. I thought everyone should see that in case they fall down the rabbit hole.
So this lesson now has some cool POV shots of the wrist moving which I’m hoping will make the objective clearer.
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I see what you mean. BUT, say we’re trying to hit 250 and we can’t. Doesn’t that mean we’re not doing something correct? I’m definitely with you in your theory that this stuff isn’t “freak genetics”, just a matter of unlocking the coordination and motion.
I think I’m gonna make a t-shirt that says “If your wrist can’t go 270, it’s WRONG” and see what type of reaction I get in the grocery stores.