Some crispy metal picking here:
and here:
One day I will have internalised all the wonderful information on here to the point I look at a player and go “ah yes they’re doing XYX” but I still remain at the stage of “I guess…they have…hands?”
edit: have another:
This dude’s twitch stream is really good! Excellent player!
HELLO…old guy here. I thought maybe “Twitch Streaming” was what this style of picking was called. I mean it doesn’t NOT make sense.
This is awesome, thanks for sharing!
Haha!! Very true. And I’m pushing 50 so, yeah…. If I wasn’t so reclusive, I’d barely know what the internet is, let alone Twitch streams lol
People have different tolerences for DIP hyperextension in the fingers. All of my DIPs can hyperextend about 30-40 degrees and tolerate some signifcant load, while my fiancé Lorraine can’t tolerate any hyperextension at her DIPs at all.
Many climbers utilize a full crimp grip with all DIPs hyperextended. It’s a very strong grip, but it is associated with finger injuries in those sports. The forces involved in climbing are much greater than in picking or fretting, so I’d imagine that for people who can tolerate some DIP hyperextension it’s probably ok in a guitar playing context, so long as they’re not death gripping the pick or the neck.
There are examples where DIP hyperextension is used to play partial barres in the middle strings. Eric Johnson demonstrates this on both TEG and TFAoG. I’ve been able to play an A shape barre chord using my ring finger as a partial barre on the B, G and D strings, with the high E and the A barred by the index (and ringing clearly) since I was a beginner. I’ve never experienced any pain or discomfort from doing do.
Hyperextension from partial barres, no problem. I do that all the time and probably have for as long as I can remember also. I suspect it’s because it’s always brief.
I think what was problematic about what I’d been trying with the pad-to-pad thumb index grip is that it was for sustained durations. Since all I tend to work on is picking lol! Keeping that grip for most of the time for most of the practice sessions was just too much. I’m thinking about re-visiting and seeing if there’s some way I can get that same basic grip but avoid whatever excess pressure was causing the hyperextension, because I did really like that setup for a lot of reasons.
This thread (and CTC) has been super helpful copying some of these techniques, I have tried for AGES to play this riff and it just started working today. When say ages I mean over the years I kept trying and it was always super sloppy and tiring whereas this feels kind of easy and I can focus more on the timing and getting the shifts right.
The biggest change I made was putting the guitar on my left knee which has allowed me to get into a more “dallas/terrance/vogg” etc type picking position and it works so much better. This is at 205bpm (click muted) - great track by artificial brain. Not even sure if this is RDT or not but it’s allowing me to play the riff so I’m happy!
Looks and sounds awesome!
Awesome! Yes, that is totally is reverse dart technique in the Dallas / Terrance “flexed” form. What’s the escape on this, is it USX?
I’m counting evens on each string starting with downs and I don’t hear swipes. So it seems USX
Based on your question and also some other recent TCs where similar things came up, I’ve added a brief new lesson right at the beginning of the sequence:
We had one player get really close with the sequence, but just needed to adjust the “direction” of the motion to get it right. The main point is that it’s not done by trying to trace a particular path against the guitar body, but instead by moving relative to a baseline posture of the arm. No matter which direction the arm is pointing, there is always some grip that will produce smooth pick attack, so long as the motion itself is moving in the sweet spot relative to the arm.
If you get a chance to watch this, let me know if this helps clarify!
Yes, USX because everything is even (and thanks @joebegly!)
Seriously have to say thanks - this type of playing was impossible for me yesterday. It actually feels like cheating when you get everything working properly; for years I thought I had to grind it out to build ‘stamina’ but I was just doing it wrong 
I feel like we just print this on T shirts at this point!
I’d buy that official CtC Merch!
Lately I’ve just gotten used to rewatching the whole Picking Motion Tutorial section every few days, cuz you keep adding more and more cool stuff lol.
Another pick grip question that’s been plaguing me for a long time…
I’ve always held the pick in such a way that the tip of the pick is somewhere near the tip of my finger, so in a way it feels like it is actually an extension of my fingertip.
When you demonstrate RDT position without a pick, you show just your thumb and fingertip together next to the string and that also feels natural to me, like it’s exactly where the tip of the pick should be.
But then, when you demonstrate the move that gets your pick to zero degrees pickslant…when you kind of wrap your thumb around the first finger knuckle and pull the pick closer into the fist-- now this grip feels more “fisty”, and more like the pick is an extension of the DIP knuckle rather than the fingertip. This always feels strange to me and I never stick with it very long. I’m sure I could get used to it, and perhaps that’s the change that will make this setup eventually work for me…but it definitely feels like a weird change.
Sort of like if I tried to write with a pencil while holding it by the eraser (ok maybe not quite that extreme though).
Has anyone else ever observed this difference in feeling…or am I even correctly describing what should be happening there?
That’s how I always held the pick (pre CtC) - just how you described. I even thought about it like the pencil analogy you mentioned. The more “trigger grippy” setups immediately felt weird to me, but I think certain postures just dictate that’s how the pick actually needs to be held maybe. The motions I can do now that I previously could not do, are all only comfortable for me if I use either a relaxed trigger grip or similar. Still, even though the “motion” feels comfortable, the “relationship” I feel to the pick is disconnected, based on how I’m used to it. I’ve heard other players describe this as feeling like you’re sort of holding a stick and picking with the end of it lol!
For me, I chalk the whole thing up to “I was doing it wrong it for decades”. Not saying there’s anything wrong with the pad-to-pad and it may be anatomical too. But certainly the way I was doing it wasn’t optimal. It just seems to me that the motions I can do now that are much faster than what I used to do seem to promote the pick being in more of a relaxed trigger grip.
I understand completely what you are asking because this is an important subject I have spent lots of time thinking about and testing.
The answer is (1) the motion is the same regardless, and (2) I make these decisions 100% exclusively for reasons of being able to do the motion.
The pick grip you are describing is the one we demonstrate in our basic form with no pick. If you could put a pick in there and have zero degrees, with the amount of edge picking that you want, then you’re good — no further adjustments needed.
However this will not work for every hand and finger type. The zero degree grip I demonstrate is the only way I have found that I can get zero degrees, with some amount of edge picking, with my finger and hand type.
This is one area where individual differences in finger geometry play a role, and why the instructions in the lessons are based on outcome: if A, then B, else C.
Just so we can improve the clarity of the lessons, was this clear from watching the lessons, or not so clear?
Would you expect this to change if a player used a more “classical” hold of the guitar? You could place the guitar on the right leg (rock style) and put your pick essentially flat on the string (flat from an “edge picking” standpoint). Don’t move the right hand at all, but move the guitar into a classical position so it’s now on the left leg, typical classical 30 - 45 degree angle of the guitar neck. Now, we’ve got some edge picking! I’ve never thought about that before…I typically do it the classical way just since I played classical for so many years and thought that way I’d have a little common ground between the 2 masters I was serving. But it seems that creates some implications maybe? I guess the important point is being aware of all these little aspects of what makes a motion feel smooth and change things until it works with our setup and anatomy.
All that does is create more edge picking. I already have the right amount, I don’t need more. I need * less downward pickslanting *. I don’t think short thumb types can get that without the grip I demonstrate.
To my original question, the checklist from the lesson should be: 1. Establish base form, 2. insert pick, 3. evaluate position. 4. if correct, done 5. if not correct, try zero-degree grip.
Was that clear from the lesson or should we include the big text “cards” with the steps so it’s clearer?
Right, sorry I was selfishly speaking from my perspective. If I do the “pickless” start, add a pick, have straight fingers, I get a zero degree pickslant, but I also have no edge picking. If I move to the classical position, I now get edge picking. I suspect this is “just me”.
Re: your checklist, yep that was clear. I still wouldn’t think the big text cards are a bad idea just because being pedantic is a good thing. I’m speaking only for myself, but I miss very obvious things all the time. I also thought you were keeping your index straight and pressing the pick into it, not the “wrapping” thing you showed in the updated video.