Both of the points you mentioned here were also new to me and pretty helpful.
Thanks! That’s helpful.
Based on this feedback then I would say the pick grip lesson is “not clearly explained” if you feel you need additional text notes after watching it. By comparison, it sounds like the pickstroke lesson is clearly explained because you got exactly what I intended from it, without the need for extra explanation.
The goal here is to be as simple as possible. If a video needs supplementary text to make sure it is understood, then it’s not really doing its job as teaching material. I’ll budget some time to update the pick grip video to explain exactly what the steps are, what it looks like when the pick grip is the one we want, and what to do if it it’s not.
Not to belabor this point, but in reality, the motion isn’t really “going left” — it’s going back and forth, sideways, relative to the arm, within a comfortable range of motion.
I’m just explaining it as leftward in this video so it matches up with how players are already doing the joint motion tests. The joint motion tests all function against a target positioned to your left. This is essentially a simulated upstroke. If you want to start a phrase on a downstroke, then of course you would be starting at the other end of your range of motion and “going to the right” of that starting point. But in all the subsequent examples in the lessons, we start on upstrokes, for consistency with the joint motion tests. So that’s why the instructions are what they are.
It’s just a teaching hack. The goal is get you to eventually internalize what “going sideways relative to the arm” feels like, no matter which way the arm is pointing, and no matter which pickstroke you’re trying to do, be it upstroke or downstroke. What we don’t want players to do is to attempt to make the pick go in a particular direction relative to the guitar body. The wrist is attached to the arm, not the guitar, so you want to stay in a good range of motion relative to the arm.
None of this actually matters unless the hack works! You can think the lessons are well done, enjoy watching them, feel like you learned something, etc. But if you don’t actually get better results, then they’re not succeeding as lessons – and that’s when we go back to the drawing board.
I heart hacks!
Here’s a note about the pick grip lesson…
Whatever it took for me to get the full message, I pretty much have it now.
I mean I now know the importance, and reason for the importance, of getting the zero pickslant.
Ideally for me, I would like to find a way to get that correct pickslant without necessarily adding a fork-ton of edge picking also. Following your cinnamon-roll-esque description of spinning the pick up into * less downward pickslanting * I do also end up with a LOT of extra edge picking, which I also feel that I don’t need. But until I figure out a better way, I’m gonna try and get used to it just so I can hopefully get the rest of that motion working well. But anyway maybe you could say something about that, even if it’s just that it doesn’t matter that much.
Another thing that’s really helpful for me with instructional videos is when an example(s) is/are given of “it’s NOT this” (meaning you also demonstrate what someone might do if they were to follow your instructions to a place that was not quite right).
1 Like
…
I think a very short paragraph of bullet points are going to be helpful if the purpose of the lesson is about a sequence of steps. You know I really enjoy all of your stuff. I’ve read your above posts and already I can’t remember the number of steps you said there were (was it 5???) or the exact things we’re supposed to do. I can sort of remember it starts without a pick, we put a pick in, we tweak some stuff until things are smooth etc. Listing out what we’re supposed to watch for is going to have us key in on those. Sort of like getting handed an outline prior to having a lecture in a college class.
I worked with a guy who gave awesome presentations and he had some saying (that I’m sure he stole) about the intro/body/wrap-up that he made sure were in all his presentations:
- (intro) Tell the audience about the thing you’re going to tell them
- (body) Tell them the thing
- (wrap up) Tell them what you just told them
Most people are very simple creatures lol!
2 Likes
I just noticed something very interesting about the superfast tapping motion video.
I’ve been trying to copy Troy’s form on this. I can get it to work pretty ok for just starting out…the tapping part is indeed an easy way to move the hand quickly. But what’s been making me crazy is I’ve been watching myself in the mirror as I do this, and it really just looks like I’m tapping my fingers directly toward the guitar, whereas Troy’s motion looks like it’s curving up and pointing towards his shoulder. It looks a bit like a Jai Alai racquet!
Even though my motion is more or less working, I couldn’t understand why I couldn’t copy Troy’s motion path and was concerned that I might be missing out on the best version of the motion.
Well. It turns out that I’m leaning back a little in my chair so the face of my guitar is not on the same plane as the mirror…it’s tipped back 10 or 15 degrees. Just this small angle really makes the motion look a lot different from my view in the mirror. All I had to do was just sit up straight and lean the guitar forward a little so that it’s straight upright, and now everything looks a whole lot different! And then I tried filming myself from a little bit above my eye level, and WOW even more different. It looks like Troy’s camera is at a pretty normal level though, like straight out in front. Am I correct?
I have to be honest, I dislike this format and have explicitly avoided it in stuff we make. When I load up an instructional video and I get “In this video I’m going to show you…”, followed by an itemized list of steps I won’t be able to remember, you’ve already lost me.
Instead what I need is either a demonstration — playing exactly what I will learn in the lesson — or, the purpose of the lesson stated as briefly as possible. “Let’s learn the reverse dart pickstroke.” Either one, or both, helps me determine if this lesson has what I’m looking for.
That said, we already have something that addresses what you’re suggesting, but I think in a better way. On the lessons where we have cards / steps, we also have clickable timeline topics:
This displays pretty clearly what the steps are, but in a way that doesn’t clutter up the tutorial presentation.
I have not done this on short videos that don’t contain discrete topics. But I can add cards and topics to the pick grip video if this one isn’t clear enough already.
2 Likes
Yep, that is definitely better than bullet points.
Maybe this is a very basic question… Bu I don’t remember to watch any video here with clarifies it,
So, if its something obvious, Im sorry about that.
I would like to ask if reverse dart motion is always (or frequentely) an upward pickslanting technique.
“Upward” pickslanting has largely been replaced by the term Down Stroke Escape (DSX). It’s important because the focus is more on the path the pick travels. In this setup, we have easy string changes after downstrokes. Example: John McLaughlin
Similarly, “Downward Pickslanting” is now called Up Stroke Escape (USX). In this setup, we have easy string changes after upstrokes. Example: Yngwie Malmsteen.
So I think you’re really asking if “reverse dart motion is always or frequently a DSX technique” (i.e. where we change strings after downstrokes a la John McLaughlin). Over a year ago I would have said “yes” but Troy’s recently shown us how it’s actually possible to get each of the techniques with reverse dart thrower. It’s apparently capable of DSX, USX and DBX (where all pick strokes escape a la Steve Morse)
There is a lot of discussion about this here:
Also, there are 11 detailed lessons on the whole thing here
I’ll be rewatching those myself because there is a lot of new/updated content there.
I moved to this topic since this is where a lot of this discussion is happening.
@joebegly’s answer is right on target.
More generally:
Any escape can be generated with reverse dart technique. But the new reverse dart lessons don’t really go into the escape aspect any more than they have to. Getting any motion at all is such an important step that we are happy with any success in this area, and we don’t care which escape it is at this point in the process.
The instructions we give you in these intro lesson will specifically set you up for DSX or DBX playing. However, if by accident some players follow these instructions but figure out the USX version instead, that’s fine too. We’ll accept anything as long as it’s good: fast, easy, and consistent.
The next step in the Primer, which we’re working on now, will be hand synchronization and chunking. This will all take place (mostly) on a single string, so escape won’t matter for that.
By the time we get to phrases which move across the strings, we’ll come back to the escape question and show you how to do the different escapes with each type of joint motion — wrist motion, forearm motion, elbow motion, etc. It will make a lot more sense there, since you need to know this to play different types of multi-string phrases.
TLDR at this stage of the process, just make sure you can get a good-sounding, easy-feeling tremolo in the ballpark of your joint motion tests. If not, then that’s the most important thing. Any technique that gets this is a good outcome. And you can always learn slightly different versions of this for different escapes later.
@Troy Do you think it’s not possible to hit 16ths in this 220-240 range using Forearm/wrist? I feel like no matter what, I can’t isolate my wrist in a supinated position. I just go from Forearm/wrist to a Zakk Wylde elbow motion when I get into the 200-210 range and that’s where I’m currently maxing out.
I actually posted this video not too long ago of another classic death metal guitarist Robert Sennebeck from Dismember because it looked like he was using forearm/wrist and elbow, but now I’m not sure.
I usually look at players like him or Terrance Hobbs or Vogg and assume it’s Forearm/Wrist due to the setup. Same with Emil Werstler, although he’s not a death metal player, at least not these days.
This is a great shot of Emil reaching some insanely fast speed easily in that 230 range. Again I’m not sure what I’m missing because I see someone with this setup and immediately think it’s that Doug Aldrich forearm/wrist;
Awesome clips! I forgot about Emil but he’s another great RDT example. These are all reverse dart wrist motion. So far all these rock / metal examples I’ve seen look like wrist to me.
To unlock these fast wrist speeds, I think that imagining them as tapping motions is the best way to get into them — especially the ones which are more flexion-extension oriented, which are easier. In that respect your motion test results are awesome, in particular your EVH test result. If you can do that, I’m certain you can do these motions.
One thing that might help is the “blade of death” test in this lesson. Have you tried that yet?
For players who try to do the more “typical-appearing” version of these motions, and end up moving the elbow like a baseball bat instead of the wrist, the blade of death test might help. It’s similar to easy wrist motions people already know how to do, and also the elbow doesn’t move in that direction so it can’t help.
If you want to make a TC for this, it would be instructive to see video of your EVH motion test, because you might already be doing the motion you want. That, and video of the blade of death test, if you like. Happy to take a look!
Thanks for the response @Troy !
So to be clear, are the forms that I see Emil and Robert here using related to the Doug Aldrich set up? Visually they both look like USX index/thumb leading edge grips, which is counter to most of the typical RDT extreme speed grips I’ve seen posted so far. And Emil looks like he’s engaging his forearm when he’s going slower. Meaning, if I’ve already spent a lot of time cultivating forearm/wrist is it an easy transition to what Emil does, since the setups look identical to me.
I’ll definitely try that test and submit a critique video.
1 Like
Yes the arm position is similar supinated arm position to what Doug Aldrich uses. But the picking motions don’t feel quite the same. The Doug Aldrich motion feels more wiggly. I can play any USX thing with that motion, but I’ve never been able to do it anywhere near as fast as the wrist motion I use in the new YT lesson, for example. Emil’s motion is more like the YT lesson motion.
I can do both of these motions, but I haven’t spent any time cultivating them. They were just things I figured out how to do, sometimes without even being aware of it. I would be wary about any technique where you feel you have to put a lot of time into the technique itself just to make it perform. This is where the motion tests can add a lot of clarity. If you’ve got some picking motion that you’ve been working on, but your motion test is 40 bpm faster, then that’s telling you something.
I could always do the motion in the air and in the table tap test I hit pretty high on it, but I could never figure out how to put it to the guitar. I actually took some lessons from @Tom_Gilroy who showed me how to work on finding the motion on the instrument and now it’s more reliable than what I did before, which was an ok wrist deviation motion. I don’t know if that counts as putting a lot of time in or just learning how to figure it out by working on it in a deliberate fashion (which, isn’t that what all these tutorials are for, anyway?). Either way, I’ll still try the blade of death exercise and do a proper technique critique.
Hi @Troy Through the novelty of experimenting with the trailing edge RDT form, and some persistent relaxation training I’ve managed to finally get the index finger grip version working quite smoothly at a reasonable speed without tension, but I’m having trouble achieving mixed escape. I have the correct form and pickslant, but the USX changes always seem to swipe, with basically a 0% success rate despite trying many different licks. There doesn’t seem to be enough randomness in the motion to get it working.
What general method would you recommend for achieving mixed escape capability with RDT when the smooth, fast and sloppy route doesn’t work? For clarity, when I say mixed escape I mean specifically a primary DSX system, with USX capability through altering the wrist motion trajectory from the same unified form.
I’ve thought of two preemptive methods that might have merit which I think might help to get mixed escape working eventually and I’d be interested to hear if you think they’re worth trying:
I’ve had marginal success with trying the classic “two way pickslantling” method you used to use; that is, flip flopping between degrees of supination to access two slightly different RDT forms to achieve both escapes. For clarity this is NOT a forearm helper motion that I’m talking about, it’s intentionally switching your form by a few degrees as required for the line to allow upstrokes to escape, then returning to baseline neutral pickslant DSX form. I can kind of get this working a little bit at speeds like 140-150bpm, but when I go into shreddy tempos it falls apart and becomes a swipey mess since I can’t consciously control the slants at those speeds, but maybe if I push the tempo and embrace the randomness I can get it working. I was thinking maybe getting this method down first would be a useful segue into later learning the more static mixed escape form without needing the constant flip-flopping form changes since it will at least familiarise my brain with the concept of mixing escapes through mixing wrist trajectories?
Another method would maybe be trying to learn continuous DBX technique first, through rolls and 1NPS arpeggios. From there I’d assume it would be fairly easy to transition into the typical mixed escape method of primary DSX + occasional USX using a different wrist trajectory, right? From my initial attempts I feel like I’m not too far off from this and might be able to get rolls working if I put some effort in. So maybe this method would work to get mixed escape working eventually?
Given that just gunning it on mixed escape lines results in the USX portions very consistently being swiped, do you think either of these methods might help in being able to achieve mixed escape ability down the road, and if so which one should I put the time into? (Sorry for the long post)
Happy to take a look at what is going on with the techniques you’re describing, but I’d need video for that. Just make a TC and include a good tremolo, and some phrases that are really working, and at least one that isn’t. Please plug in so we can get a sense of tone, attack, noise control, etc.
Otherwise:
I don’t know if your platform videos are up to date but, I just re-watched those and there’s a bunch of really nice stuff in there that looks to me like the beginnings of things. But I can’t tell if any of those are at the point where you can play through whole tunes.
If not, that’s what I’d recommend doing. Get at least one technique to the point where you can do a whole song, plugged in, where you don’t have to think about the technique at all. It can be a ‘boring’ single escape motion of any kind, that’s fine. I mean, look at Andy James. Few players sound better!
I say this because it’s easy to get stuck in limbo where you’re halfway with all techniques and no music ever gets made. Plus, as far as learning new techniques, it helps to be in a totally habitual state with at least one of playing style.
Thanks for responding. Those videos aren’t up to date any more thankfully. The motion back then kind of worked to some degree, but was full of tension and unsustainable, but experimenting with trailing edge RDT and then going back to index finger grip finally made it click, so now I can finally say I have a properly working, smooth and tensionless DSX wrist motion so I’ve got step one down. It’s basically identical to the index finger form you use in your RDT tutorials, just with slightly less supination.
Basically what happens is when I try to play mixed escape lines the DSX parts escape fine, but the USX portions always swipe. My hand seems to just stick brazenly to the DSX pathway and bruteforce its way through the USX parts. There doesn’t seem to be enough/any randomness to it, which is what you want when learning an unfamiliar motor pattern obviously, so in order to artificially mix things up, I was wondering if learning continuous double escape or the flip flop form method first, then coming back to try the typical mixed escape method again might be a good method to provide my brain with enough data points to get the mixed escape stuff working.
Since I seem to potentially be on the cusp of something with continuous DBX rolls judging by my recent attempts, and maybe might be able to get somewhere if I try to do the flip flop thing, do you think these are useful pathways to eventually achieve the more typical unified form mixed escape ability?
Without video I really can’t comment on what you’re doing and whether it would be helpful to keep doing that. Not trying be evasive! I just know that I’m no good at guessing from textual descriptions. If you’d like to make a TC, of course, happy to take a look! If you go that route, definitely show us the new motion that you like, preferably plugged in on phrases that are working — that would be awesome.