Reverse dart speed!

Playing Technique
#21

The amount of hyperextension I can do with my thumb looks more or less like that. Maybe a touch farther, but not much.

If you look at George Benson, he’s not very “Bent-son” at all:

His thumb is much straighter than you might think. Notice his arm is coming in over the bridge, closer to parallel with the strings. So he simply doesn’t need a big bend in the thumb. The posture of his wrist and hand in its relaxed state simply points the pick in the trailing edge direction.

As far as playing lines that move across the strings, I included examples in the lesson to show how this works. They’re in the “alternate picking” section at 15:31.

Note also that middle-finger / three-finger grip also works for reverse dart, and you can do that with leading edge pick attack, like James Hetfield. So trailing edge is not strictly necessary for all versions of this.

But honestly the best place to start is not to worry about this technical stuff with grips and postures. Instead, mimic the motion in the air or by tapping on a table. If you can do that very fast with a feeling of ease, then you’re doing it. This is a good test because it can reduce confusion about whether you’re really doing the motion or not.

#22

Slow clap

How long were you saving that one?

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#23

Ha. Unplanned — lightning in a bottle!

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#24

It could be overthinking it a little too. Sometimes people focus too much on how it looks in a broad sense rather than how nuanced it can be or how it may only be one component of an effective picking motion.

I think I tried it last year sometime when you guys were all talking about it, but I found it more trouble than it was worth and it didn’t really work with my hand and felt icky. Also, speed or not, the sound of it is kind of off putting. In that video @Troy posted of Luis, there’s a brief period he switches to the common leading edge grip right towards the end, and it just sounds much better.

#25

Thank you man, I should practice it more.

#26

Man, there was this guy, I can’t remember where on youtube, but I think it might of been from slayer? Who I posted a video of his before, he was really pissed his songs were being used, tho the main thing is he talked about the George Benson technique as being one on the best, It’s annoying me that I can’t find it. So much stuff is really hard to find unless you know exactly what you’re looking for.

I think I posted one of his videos on here, really good player. Was really pissed that he was removed from the band and had his songs essentially stolen, not Dave Mustaine lol

#27

I can’t even think of who that could possibly be if it’s not Mustaine haha. Slayer’s guitarists were Kerry King and Jeff Hanneman but Jeff died quite awhile back. Gary Holt took over after and that was that. Was it one of them? Might be one of the dudes from the Bay Area scene where all those bands originated.

#28

That sure sounds like Dave Mustaine to me. Couldnt have been Slayer. Both Kerry and Jeff were the original members, and Jeff died. Gary Holt replaced Jeff, but stayed in the band until it disbanded.

George Benson makes me think Alex Skolnik, probably one of the objectively best guitar players in that genre, but he was the one who left Testament originally to pursue his education, and then joined the band again later. I’ve never heard of him harboring any ill will during his hiatus. Maybe James Murphy, but I don’t know much about him or Thrash beef in general except well you know the Dave, James and Lars thing.

#29

I don’t think I’ll be jumping ship as such. Rotational forearm/wrist was the first “fast” motion I was able to fire up.

Interestingly, my fastest version of it is the non resting on the bridge form. Feels slightly more forearm driven. If it weren’t for the noise factor, I’d probably have run with that. I can also play a lot more aggressively in that form, but the sympathetic string noise bothers me. It’s more obvious on my small practice amp too for some reason.

I’m not sure now if any of the Usx motions, with the exception of Shawn Laine’s form, can reach the same speeds as the RDT wrist motion? Not that I need to be playing death metal speeds, but it might be helpful to know what sort of speeds are realistic, for certain joint motions/combinations.

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#30

Right, not sure about maxes. BUT we’ve seen @qwertygitarr doing 6’s at 150 -160 bpm which works out to 16ths at 240. To me that’s good enough :grinning:

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#31

You know what… I could see it being James Murphy. His solos in Cause Of Death made the record for me and he wasn’t there for long. I don’t know anything about what caused his departure, but I doubt it was on the best of terms.

Nice mention of Alex Skolnik! He’s amazing!

#32

Can’t help but think of Paul Gilbert’s original three-finger pick grip! Not as fast as Troy has demonstrated so maybe not completely optimised but probably related/part of the reverse dart family? :slight_smile:

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#33

Unfortunately this is not a speed I have hit with my mechanic haha :joy:

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#34

I feel this way as well however I do remember when I had that thought to get the left hand to sync with this speed will also take time as well to develop, and my initial thought was to use the drill as a crutch on single string runs. But this might be the better option as you get to also develop at least one technique in the right hand. Even though the picking does sound scratchy, one or two years down the line when your hands develop more coordination and power you might could alter the attack to lessen that scratch. Sure you might also lose a bit of speed in that process, but it won’t be as much. Even if it doesn’t pan out at least you have developed the left hand which can aid in finding a way in the right hand.

#35

Just had the light bulb moment, now I see the light! This is some very profound stuff Troy, this flip flopping of the pick angle is the answer! It is gypsy jazz double down, but upside down! Brilliant! The coordination gained from this double upstroke will be huge! I totally just bypassed that the pick also should face upside down of the way you hold it with upstroke escape as well. The most important part of that entire video is when you show the tapping, and then tilting the wrist.

If you do that same tapping then tilt, with that 3 finger pick grip (very important), you feel that double up as even with myself I am unable currently to do alternate picking with this setup however I am already doing double ups with coordination! We need the phrases and etudes now. :stuck_out_tongue:

i feel like i should just switch completely to 3 finger grip so i can alter the angle if i am ascending or descending musically across the strings now. :slight_smile:

#36

Yes this a DSX technique. So depending on a variety of factors you may need an upward pickslant. Note that in the alternate picking example in the lesson, I actually do not have an upward pickslant. This is because the trailing edge pick grip already has a built-in “slant”, if you will because the shape of the pick. In slow motion you can see the pick really does not have an obvious pickslant, and is instead being held mostly vertical:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CxoBuY5u3fP/

Also, note that this is not just for upstrokes. Downstrokes can also be done as DSX. They will just be escape strokes. This is how Hetfield’s technique works.

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#37

Even here with this distortion tone I am unable to hear that scratchiness in the strings. So it appears this is maybe a more recent video with more time spent with this technique right? Probably just takes some time for the hands to find that sweet spot to get that more articulate attack, but still retain the high speed.

#38

Did you have any initial difficulty with getting smooth pick attack? Over the past few days I’ve gotten a tremolo going in the 230bpm+ range using identical form to your video, but I’m struggling to achieve a consistent and smooth pick attack, which leads unpleasant tone, stickiness and not being able to sustain the tremolo very long without getting slightly stuck or missing the string and rest stroking on the higher string. I’ve noticed I’m consistently and aggressively rest stroking on upstrokes, which might be part of the problem. Is this just something that will likely go away over time?

#39

This is amazing! Great work once again!

The speed that @Troy reached in the video reminded me of Nile’s song [Oxford Textbook of Savage Genocidal Warfare:

…which has the fastest palm muted picking I’ve ever heard - you can hear it right in the beginning, check it out. It’s so ultra clean that I wondered how did they actually achieve that. Could it be this technique? Does anybody know how Karl Sanders picks at these tempos?

I saw them recently live but I couldn’t see much of his technique. I have some videos though, I’ll check them again and post if I can see something interesting.

#40

I know in the gypsy jazz realm when I learn a new phrase that the rest stroke is highly beneficial in quickly imprinting the picking articulation of a phrase/line very quickly into the bodies motor mechanics of the hands, the subconscious consistency you build with the rest stroke is huge. Plus it will greatly allow you to have a very articulate attack, which can later be altered for a softer dynamic. It will be harder to go from a softer dynamic to a louder dynamic. I would say roll with what you are doing, it sounds like it is working.