Aha ok that’s a potential additional step then. If orientation is correct but need more edge picking, do this.
I’ve also had the feeling that I might’ve missed out on some nuggets that had been added a later time. I think this is a sign the primer could benefit from a changelog:
- 08.10.23 Added new section explaining the RDT pickstroke
- 07.10.23 New segment at mm:ss in some lesson about something
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We’ve considered this, but during the week or two stretch when we roll out new lessons, there’s so much moving things around that the log would be unnecessarily noisy.
Instead, what we’ve been doing is sending out email updates, along with a matching blog post, once things stabilize. Those are pretty detailed.
They don’t necessarily list changes down to the timestamps, which would be extremely hard to do, particularly when lessons change length. But they make it pretty clear what the overall point of the changes are, so that someone who hasn’t watched in a while will know whether it’s worth a re-watch. If so, they should just re-watch the whole sequence in question to make sure they catch everything.
Just as an example, the blog post about the previous update includes details like this screenshot. This is just an excerpt — the full list is much longer:
We haven’t sent out the detailed email for this update yet, again because we’ve been making a lot of changes. But it looks like we’ve got things where they need to be, so we’ll probably send that out soon.
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I would say that’s it’s very clearly explained…
The problem that I sometimes have (and it’s probably not just me) is that sometimes a very important detail will just pass me by because I’m still thinking about another important detail that I just heard before that. Your post that I’m replying to here is a great companion piece for the video. I’ve read through the post a few times and watched the video a few times and I’ve squeezed out a bit more knowledge each time. In the post you’re kind of summarizing what we should be learning from the video. It’s probably not practical to do that every time you post a video, but it sure is helpful!
If I were sharing this video with a friend, I might say something like “be sure to pay attention to what Troy says at 3:52” etc. (that’s just a random selection, but I mean whatever part helped me the most-- I would want my friend to know that also).
Most of the videos contain a lot of content that is review (and I absolutely benefit from having certain info hammered into my thick skull repeatedly) but then also there may be a “golden nugget” of info that I haven’t heard before and it could be the one thing that makes the huge difference in my progress. Two great recent examples of this are 1) in Pickslanting for DBX when you talk about the adjustment. and 2) in The Reverse Dart Pickstroke, when you talk about the motion just going to the left and then returning back to your neutral position (rather than going ‘this way’ and then ‘going that way’.)
Those are both kind of revolutionary new concepts to me. I’m sure it’s been all talked about plenty of times before, but those were the moments that the info finally sunk in for me!
So here’s my completely impractical request: every time you create a new video, please also post a guide for us that says “be sure to pay close attention at x:xx because that’s the golden nugget of wisdom right there”.
Of course I’m kidding, but still there are times when you’ve pointed out what’s really important-- or other users have pointed out what really helped them – and in turn that’s really helped me!
EDIT: also just wanted to mention that some of the links above in this thread are broken now, like [Chapter 5 - Pickslanting For Double Escape] is now chapter 6 and there’s not a redirect on the link. As if you didn’t already have enough to do.
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That’s a great way of describing it…“disconnected”. And it’s very helpful to know that it’s not just me, and that it’s not necessarily wrong. Thanks!
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Both of the points you mentioned here were also new to me and pretty helpful.
Thanks! That’s helpful.
Based on this feedback then I would say the pick grip lesson is “not clearly explained” if you feel you need additional text notes after watching it. By comparison, it sounds like the pickstroke lesson is clearly explained because you got exactly what I intended from it, without the need for extra explanation.
The goal here is to be as simple as possible. If a video needs supplementary text to make sure it is understood, then it’s not really doing its job as teaching material. I’ll budget some time to update the pick grip video to explain exactly what the steps are, what it looks like when the pick grip is the one we want, and what to do if it it’s not.
Not to belabor this point, but in reality, the motion isn’t really “going left” — it’s going back and forth, sideways, relative to the arm, within a comfortable range of motion.
I’m just explaining it as leftward in this video so it matches up with how players are already doing the joint motion tests. The joint motion tests all function against a target positioned to your left. This is essentially a simulated upstroke. If you want to start a phrase on a downstroke, then of course you would be starting at the other end of your range of motion and “going to the right” of that starting point. But in all the subsequent examples in the lessons, we start on upstrokes, for consistency with the joint motion tests. So that’s why the instructions are what they are.
It’s just a teaching hack. The goal is get you to eventually internalize what “going sideways relative to the arm” feels like, no matter which way the arm is pointing, and no matter which pickstroke you’re trying to do, be it upstroke or downstroke. What we don’t want players to do is to attempt to make the pick go in a particular direction relative to the guitar body. The wrist is attached to the arm, not the guitar, so you want to stay in a good range of motion relative to the arm.
None of this actually matters unless the hack works! You can think the lessons are well done, enjoy watching them, feel like you learned something, etc. But if you don’t actually get better results, then they’re not succeeding as lessons – and that’s when we go back to the drawing board.
I heart hacks!
Here’s a note about the pick grip lesson…
Whatever it took for me to get the full message, I pretty much have it now.
I mean I now know the importance, and reason for the importance, of getting the zero pickslant.
Ideally for me, I would like to find a way to get that correct pickslant without necessarily adding a fork-ton of edge picking also. Following your cinnamon-roll-esque description of spinning the pick up into * less downward pickslanting * I do also end up with a LOT of extra edge picking, which I also feel that I don’t need. But until I figure out a better way, I’m gonna try and get used to it just so I can hopefully get the rest of that motion working well. But anyway maybe you could say something about that, even if it’s just that it doesn’t matter that much.
Another thing that’s really helpful for me with instructional videos is when an example(s) is/are given of “it’s NOT this” (meaning you also demonstrate what someone might do if they were to follow your instructions to a place that was not quite right).
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…
I think a very short paragraph of bullet points are going to be helpful if the purpose of the lesson is about a sequence of steps. You know I really enjoy all of your stuff. I’ve read your above posts and already I can’t remember the number of steps you said there were (was it 5???) or the exact things we’re supposed to do. I can sort of remember it starts without a pick, we put a pick in, we tweak some stuff until things are smooth etc. Listing out what we’re supposed to watch for is going to have us key in on those. Sort of like getting handed an outline prior to having a lecture in a college class.
I worked with a guy who gave awesome presentations and he had some saying (that I’m sure he stole) about the intro/body/wrap-up that he made sure were in all his presentations:
- (intro) Tell the audience about the thing you’re going to tell them
- (body) Tell them the thing
- (wrap up) Tell them what you just told them
Most people are very simple creatures lol!
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I just noticed something very interesting about the superfast tapping motion video.
I’ve been trying to copy Troy’s form on this. I can get it to work pretty ok for just starting out…the tapping part is indeed an easy way to move the hand quickly. But what’s been making me crazy is I’ve been watching myself in the mirror as I do this, and it really just looks like I’m tapping my fingers directly toward the guitar, whereas Troy’s motion looks like it’s curving up and pointing towards his shoulder. It looks a bit like a Jai Alai racquet!
Even though my motion is more or less working, I couldn’t understand why I couldn’t copy Troy’s motion path and was concerned that I might be missing out on the best version of the motion.
Well. It turns out that I’m leaning back a little in my chair so the face of my guitar is not on the same plane as the mirror…it’s tipped back 10 or 15 degrees. Just this small angle really makes the motion look a lot different from my view in the mirror. All I had to do was just sit up straight and lean the guitar forward a little so that it’s straight upright, and now everything looks a whole lot different! And then I tried filming myself from a little bit above my eye level, and WOW even more different. It looks like Troy’s camera is at a pretty normal level though, like straight out in front. Am I correct?
I have to be honest, I dislike this format and have explicitly avoided it in stuff we make. When I load up an instructional video and I get “In this video I’m going to show you…”, followed by an itemized list of steps I won’t be able to remember, you’ve already lost me.
Instead what I need is either a demonstration — playing exactly what I will learn in the lesson — or, the purpose of the lesson stated as briefly as possible. “Let’s learn the reverse dart pickstroke.” Either one, or both, helps me determine if this lesson has what I’m looking for.
That said, we already have something that addresses what you’re suggesting, but I think in a better way. On the lessons where we have cards / steps, we also have clickable timeline topics:
This displays pretty clearly what the steps are, but in a way that doesn’t clutter up the tutorial presentation.
I have not done this on short videos that don’t contain discrete topics. But I can add cards and topics to the pick grip video if this one isn’t clear enough already.
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Yep, that is definitely better than bullet points.
Maybe this is a very basic question… Bu I don’t remember to watch any video here with clarifies it,
So, if its something obvious, Im sorry about that.
I would like to ask if reverse dart motion is always (or frequentely) an upward pickslanting technique.
“Upward” pickslanting has largely been replaced by the term Down Stroke Escape (DSX). It’s important because the focus is more on the path the pick travels. In this setup, we have easy string changes after downstrokes. Example: John McLaughlin
Similarly, “Downward Pickslanting” is now called Up Stroke Escape (USX). In this setup, we have easy string changes after upstrokes. Example: Yngwie Malmsteen.
So I think you’re really asking if “reverse dart motion is always or frequently a DSX technique” (i.e. where we change strings after downstrokes a la John McLaughlin). Over a year ago I would have said “yes” but Troy’s recently shown us how it’s actually possible to get each of the techniques with reverse dart thrower. It’s apparently capable of DSX, USX and DBX (where all pick strokes escape a la Steve Morse)
There is a lot of discussion about this here:
Also, there are 11 detailed lessons on the whole thing here
I’ll be rewatching those myself because there is a lot of new/updated content there.
I moved to this topic since this is where a lot of this discussion is happening.
@joebegly’s answer is right on target.
More generally:
Any escape can be generated with reverse dart technique. But the new reverse dart lessons don’t really go into the escape aspect any more than they have to. Getting any motion at all is such an important step that we are happy with any success in this area, and we don’t care which escape it is at this point in the process.
The instructions we give you in these intro lesson will specifically set you up for DSX or DBX playing. However, if by accident some players follow these instructions but figure out the USX version instead, that’s fine too. We’ll accept anything as long as it’s good: fast, easy, and consistent.
The next step in the Primer, which we’re working on now, will be hand synchronization and chunking. This will all take place (mostly) on a single string, so escape won’t matter for that.
By the time we get to phrases which move across the strings, we’ll come back to the escape question and show you how to do the different escapes with each type of joint motion — wrist motion, forearm motion, elbow motion, etc. It will make a lot more sense there, since you need to know this to play different types of multi-string phrases.
TLDR at this stage of the process, just make sure you can get a good-sounding, easy-feeling tremolo in the ballpark of your joint motion tests. If not, then that’s the most important thing. Any technique that gets this is a good outcome. And you can always learn slightly different versions of this for different escapes later.
@Troy Do you think it’s not possible to hit 16ths in this 220-240 range using Forearm/wrist? I feel like no matter what, I can’t isolate my wrist in a supinated position. I just go from Forearm/wrist to a Zakk Wylde elbow motion when I get into the 200-210 range and that’s where I’m currently maxing out.
I actually posted this video not too long ago of another classic death metal guitarist Robert Sennebeck from Dismember because it looked like he was using forearm/wrist and elbow, but now I’m not sure.
I usually look at players like him or Terrance Hobbs or Vogg and assume it’s Forearm/Wrist due to the setup. Same with Emil Werstler, although he’s not a death metal player, at least not these days.
This is a great shot of Emil reaching some insanely fast speed easily in that 230 range. Again I’m not sure what I’m missing because I see someone with this setup and immediately think it’s that Doug Aldrich forearm/wrist;
Awesome clips! I forgot about Emil but he’s another great RDT example. These are all reverse dart wrist motion. So far all these rock / metal examples I’ve seen look like wrist to me.
To unlock these fast wrist speeds, I think that imagining them as tapping motions is the best way to get into them — especially the ones which are more flexion-extension oriented, which are easier. In that respect your motion test results are awesome, in particular your EVH test result. If you can do that, I’m certain you can do these motions.
One thing that might help is the “blade of death” test in this lesson. Have you tried that yet?
For players who try to do the more “typical-appearing” version of these motions, and end up moving the elbow like a baseball bat instead of the wrist, the blade of death test might help. It’s similar to easy wrist motions people already know how to do, and also the elbow doesn’t move in that direction so it can’t help.
If you want to make a TC for this, it would be instructive to see video of your EVH motion test, because you might already be doing the motion you want. That, and video of the blade of death test, if you like. Happy to take a look!
Thanks for the response @Troy !
So to be clear, are the forms that I see Emil and Robert here using related to the Doug Aldrich set up? Visually they both look like USX index/thumb leading edge grips, which is counter to most of the typical RDT extreme speed grips I’ve seen posted so far. And Emil looks like he’s engaging his forearm when he’s going slower. Meaning, if I’ve already spent a lot of time cultivating forearm/wrist is it an easy transition to what Emil does, since the setups look identical to me.
I’ll definitely try that test and submit a critique video.
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Yes the arm position is similar supinated arm position to what Doug Aldrich uses. But the picking motions don’t feel quite the same. The Doug Aldrich motion feels more wiggly. I can play any USX thing with that motion, but I’ve never been able to do it anywhere near as fast as the wrist motion I use in the new YT lesson, for example. Emil’s motion is more like the YT lesson motion.
I can do both of these motions, but I haven’t spent any time cultivating them. They were just things I figured out how to do, sometimes without even being aware of it. I would be wary about any technique where you feel you have to put a lot of time into the technique itself just to make it perform. This is where the motion tests can add a lot of clarity. If you’ve got some picking motion that you’ve been working on, but your motion test is 40 bpm faster, then that’s telling you something.