Right hand setup for DBX (crosspicking)

Playing Technique
#1

I’m trying to piece together the advice for crosspicking that’s covered in the two live workshops, forum posts, the latest instagram posts, etc.

@Troy gives a specific right-hand setup in the workshop, anchoring the wrist on both the thumb and pinky side, which results in a supinated forearm; plus a “trigger” pick grip. I have two questions:

-Is this still the preferred setup to learn DBX, anchoring in two points?
-Is there any advantage in learning the pronated forearm position instead? i.e. the Molly Tuttle setup.

I know that DBX can be achieved with both pronated and supinated forearm, but maybe there’s some advantage to either? It could be a tonal advantage too.

#2

What’s your natural escape tendency? I would imagine both would work, it just depends on how comfortable either of them feel. You can also develop them concurrently and see which one works the most for you.

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#3

You can’t mute the string you’re playing with the pronated form. For bluegrass that doesn’t matter much, but if you’re looking to play Steve Morse’s lines it might.

Troy’s said that if you can do one of these you can most likely do the other, so there might be some benefit in just seeing which one you can get and rolling with it.

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#4

“DBX” is really just a general name to describe any picking techhnique that makes a semicircle. We’ve seen techniques of many varieties that have this characteristic: wrist motions, elbow-wrist motions, forearm-wrist motions, finger motions, finger-wrist motions — the varieties are endless. So there isn’t a particular set of instructions for “doing DBX” since there isn’t one way to do this.

However, we’ve learned over time that instructions for doing specific motions don’t tend to work very well. The hit rate is low. People spend large amounts of time trying to position themselves down to the millimeter, and when you tell them to go fast, they just revert to whatever motion they already know. So we have had much better success working with those familiar motions and unlocking the power within them. So my questions for you:

  1. Are you already good a picking motion? Which joint, and which type of escape?

  2. If that motion is a single escape motion, can you already do synchronized, fluid, multi-string playing with that motion, where you pick all the notes across common fretboard shapes?

  3. If you can’t do (2), I wouldn’t skip this step. Getting good at any picking style, as soon as you can, is the best first step to learning others.

  4. If you can do (2), and you want to learn to play other phrases that fall outside that motion’s capabilities, I would still recommend just using that motion as a starting point. Assemble a wide variety of phrases that you don’t normally think of as fitting that motion, and trying to play them fast, with that motion, or something as similar to it as possible. The idea is to use a little trial and error to get something that feels smooth and relatively similar / familiar to what you already do, and at least sort of hits the notes in the new phrase at or near a real-world speed. If it’s not fast and smooth up front, we haven’t seen good results with trying to worry about lots of smaller details before that.

Keep in mind that you’re probably not specifically trying to learn “double escape”. Plenty of people who do make double escape motions, don’t necessarily make them all the time. Andy Wood is a good example of this. He looks like all sorts of things when you film him up close. So you probably don’t care what the technique really is, you just want it to be smooth and sound good.

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#5

Thanks! I need to give it a good thought and also need to go over the newest sections of the Primer, which I haven’t yet.

Before CtC I was a typical string-hopper that played well but never fast (styles: classic rock, classic soul, Americana). My tendency is towards upstroke escapes.

Thanks to CtC I totally transformed my playing! The crosspicking videos really got to me and I think I managed to turn my double-trapped string hopping into a reasonably fluid double escape motion. I’ve worked also on a few left hand problems as well.

My current problem -and the root of my question- is that I’m able to “floor it” and play bluegrass lines at 140BPM but they’re not clean enough. Sometimes my hand/pick falls into a position that really makes me feel that “Yes, I’m riding a bike!” moment, but I can’t get it as consistently as I’d like to. So I wonder if getting a more precise right hand setup could help, or the opposite: trying the pronated position which comes less naturally to me, as a way to trick my brain into a new movement.

Just to explain where I’m at: I can play the “beaumont roll” at 140 BPM acceptably but not cleanly enough to consider playing it on a recording session (or even a live jam!) At 150 BPM, much too rough, forget it! An example from the crosspicking live event: I can play the “broken roll” (5-4-3 5-4-2 5-4-3 5-4-2 5-4-3-2) but have a bit of trouble with the 5-4-3-2 part.

So I think I’m stuck in the fine-tuning/cleaning up part of the technique. Or maybe my setup is not optimal and there are some changes I could make.

Now for @troy 's questions:

  1. I’m doing wrist picking with USX or DBX. But I really need to go over the picking motions section of the Primer and try them all, including the tapping tests. So thanks for indirectly reminding me of that!

  2. I think the answer to this is yes. I would need to film my playing (yes, I’m a Magnet backer!) to really see what’s really going on here in terms of escape. Again, another useful reminder!

  3. Agreed. Which makes me want to really pick a single escape motion and get really good at it as well.

  4. I’ll give this a good thought.

Thanks all, I’ve already got some stuff to work on! :slight_smile:

#6

It sounds like you’ve already made a bunch of progress. If that’s the case, I would really avoid nerding out on a bunch of small-picture details from our lessons about which millimeter of hand flesh should be touching which part of the guitar!

Also, you can’t learn a whole technique just by learning one or two picking patterns. If something about those patterns isn’t working, there’s only so many ways you can think of to try them differently before you run out of ideas. Most of the learning happens subconsciously anyway, so it’s not so much that you yourself are doing something overtly differently as much as your hands are figuring things out on their own in small almost imperceptible ways that add up over the long haul to meaningful results.

So the best thing to do is allow them the opportunity to do that by playing everying with the technique. This means assembling a wide variety of phrases or pieces of music and playing them all with the technique. It’s not a “crosspicking” technique, it’s just a general-purpose picking technique and you’re going to do everything with it. Some things will work right away, others may not. But everything will get better together over time.

Try not to get stuck at slow / medium speeds where things sound good. Always go fast and sloppy to make sure you have something can actually * go * fast. If not, the medium speeds will lie to you. This is where years are wasted / lost.

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#7

Yes, fast and sloppy is the approach that has really helped me. I have my doubts about how to clean it up. Always fast? Slow it down a bit but not too much? All of it? :smiley:

#8

Single escape playing doesn’t really have this issue, or at least not to the same extent. It’s just hand synchronization, chunking on landmark notes. So the first thing is to make sure you can do fast synchronized, error-free playing that is clean in a simpler style like that, just so it’s clear what you’re shooting for in more complicated ones.

Beyond that, when you’re trying to learn some unfamiliar motion, the speed thing is just the first step, but yes of course you can slow down a little after that. You just don’t want to get stuck in a medium speed where you trick yourself into thinking you’re really doing the technique, but not actually doing it.

The other thing that helps is not trying to just work on these limited patterns all the time. Have you played three-note-per-string scales or three-and-two-note-per-string scales (jazz/CAGED shapes) with this motion? How about the pentatonic scale in various directions and patterns? How about the pentatonic scale with blues/passing tones thrown in to generate more unusual picking patterns? How about a bluegrass tune with a non-pattern-based melody? How about a keyboard melody you stole from a classical piece, jazz piece, or pop song? You get the idea. Whatever kind of music you like to play, just try to find enough variety there so that you are trying to figure out a wide array of patterns. Everything will help everything else get better.

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#9

Thanks, there’s gold in these replies! :raised_hands: