Roadmap of Classical Guitar Methods?

General Music Discussion
#21

@Frylock

What a stroke of luck, the first video I found when searching classical guitar nail shape is really, really good. This is almost identical to what Julian Gray at Peabody taught me…way back when I was a young man of 18 :slight_smile:

Just a couple supplemental points:

  • I like how this guy indicates there isn’t necessarily a universal consensus on shape, as it’s partially dependent on our anatomy…and there’s a degree of personal preference too
  • He mentions “contact point” and goes over it thoroughly…I was taught to go just a hair to the ‘left’ of where he specifies (if viewing your hand as the image he includes, where the nails are facing you…just a little to the left of his yellow indicators is how I was taught to make the contact). Probably some personal preference there as well, just thought I’d mention it
  • He name drops ‘Micro Mesh’ as his buffing material. That product is the absolute best I’ve come across. A small kit of it will last you over a year. A little more pricey than the multi step buffers at the pharmacy, but well worth it.
  • I was taught to shape my thumbnail the opposite side of what he shows. He mentions different things work for different folks, but I have tried both ways and keeping it shaped with the ramp beginning on the same side as the other fingers always worked best for me. Probably a further indicator of this not being univeral…

Once you’ve got nails down, it’s time for tone production. Lots of technique involved there so I won’t say too much about it. The demos he does about 3/4 of the way through are good though, because you can see his form from what would be your perspective. So, a great place to start.

The reason nail shape/care and tone production are a prerequisite to everything else in classical guitar is contextual. Remember, a traditional classical guitarist uses no mic. They were not invented at the time the instrument came to prominence :slight_smile: Due to the guitar’s anatomy, it is not a loud instrument. Nail shape and tone production are the only way to get your sound past the first row of the audience haha. That’s how it was presented to me by Julian Gray of Peabody. So everything must be viewed from that lens. More advanced techniques build upon these constraints. Any classical guitarist without the ability to project a consistent, strong tone would not be seriously considered in that community. This is not to say they look down upon amateurs or weekend warriors at all. I’m purely speaking of the standpoint of one who would pursue this as a profession.

If you determine that your goal is simply to play classical pieces for your own enjoyment, all of this doesn’t matter much. You could just identify the pieces you want to play, find out what ‘techniques’ are required, and use concepts you’ve learned in CtC, or @Tom_Gilroy’s excellent work on efficient digital cycles to ensure your movements are efficient enough to play the notes required. The result of that would be (hopefully) you having some enjoyment and sense of accomplishment. If a ‘purist’ heard the result, they would likely sneer. So what :slight_smile:

Again, I’m often torn in my feelings for the whole thing. Spending so much time in that world, it is difficult for me to even play ‘casually’ anymore. Picking up a piece I haven’t played for months or years would take some time to work back up to where I enjoyed the sound. I may not have time for that between work and family and wanting to shred :slight_smile: Furthermore, I could not stand the sound of the instrument if I sat down to play it and did not have nails, or did not have my nails properly done. I wouldn’t enjoy the session at all. Keeping the nails in shape is a chore. I’ve been ruined I think lol!

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#22

An excellent video by William Kanengiser was also shared in this post by @johnhorneguitar.

Hybrid picking nails problem

Edit: I’ve just realised that linking to that post seems self aggrandizing, which was not al all my intention.

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#23

What sort of a narcissist quotes himself??? haha, just wanted to give a ‘case in point’ on this.

When’s the last time anyone can remember doing a barre chord, where the index finger had to bar 2 different frets at the same time??? David Russell is just…sick. I never stumbled across a piece that required it. Even still, most pieces I learned did require some very challenging stretches much like this, that had to be held for uncomfortable lengths of time, while moving left hand fingers independently and of course maintaining even tone in the picking hand. Tough stuff. Time for me to go work on some DSX lines!!!

Are the new guitarists better than 80s guitarists?
#24

Nice! and he even opens with Lagrima by Tarrega! That’s actually an excellent beginner classical piece.

#25

Nah, you’re good. Very appropriate content for this thread. That video is great…plus, your thread also contains the video I’d included on nail shape, I just now noticed haha! All very related to embarking (or choosing not to) on some forays into traditional classical playing.

#26

As for nails…That the way I recognize fellow guitarists: their left hand nails are much shorter than those on their right hand ) And I’m not an exception

btw, a friend of mine - he is not a melodic shredder but his rhythm playing is pure killer - have his nails cut short except that one on his pinky. When I asked him why, he said ‘it makes it easier’ without further explanation. Oh, and he plays acoustic only.

#27

Maybe he is Randy Rhoads fan?

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I can’t remember if it was Guitar World or where I heard someone comment on that about him. They may have mentioned occasionally seeing some cocaine on his pinky nail too haha.

#28

)) I doubt it. Here in Russia we are not familiar much with western guitar iconic players. I mean, I didn’t know who Van Halen is until I joined the forum ^_^’

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#29

You are Billie Eilish and I claim my five pounds.

#30

Don’t know who is he either ))

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#31

Regarding the history/standardization of technique, I came across these interesting articles

https://classicalguitarmagazine.com/towards-the-holy-grail-a-short-history-of-guitar-methods/

https://classicalguitarmagazine.com/the-history-of-the-modern-classical-guitar-and-its-deep-iberian-roots/

I will admit I only skimmed both. My takeaway - what is standard today isn’t exactly ‘hundreds’ of years old. More like a singular ‘hundred’ and that is being generous. At one point even playing with/without nails was a hot debate. Interesting. I think I mentioned in some post that I never questioned the origins of what I was instructed back when I received my education. What I got was definitely kosher in terms of what any modern classical virtuoso does. It is not, however, something that has been preserved with the care of relgious scripture or composition manuscripts of JS Bach, since the time of its inception. It is rather a careful refinement of various approaches.

#32

Here is an amazing musician from my city talking about those aspects of speed playing on acoustic guitar. It might help!

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#33

Wow he is awesome. He seems more flamenco than traditional classical to me. Not in any way a criticism, just an observation. I’d need to see him playing a traditional piece in the repertoire to see if I need to walk that back at all.

What most strikes me about his positioning is that he’s balancing the guitar on his right leg. That is not a traditional classical posture. Now, for the sake of arguing (against myself lol) here is a video of someone who is definitely trained in the traditional methods, and he is also balancing the instrument on his right leg:

Doesn’t seem to impede him :slight_smile: And if anyone had a negative thing to say about this performance, I’d be civil about it, but strongly disagree. Beautiful tone, beautiful interpretation. Nothing else matters! I’ve also seen him position the guitar more traditionally, on his left leg, wearing a tux. So who knows. Maybe he was just being casual/comfortable and didn’t care about the snobbery. As @7th11th mentioned, there is definitely some BS with the traditions. Not every little nit picky thing is as important as they make it out to be.

#34

One of the interesting things in the second article is how certain things that seem to be accepted as dogma in classical guitar today were controversial or “revolutionary” as recently as the 1800s. Tarrega helped popularize the placement of the guitar on the left leg (with footstool), and helped depopularize placement of the pinky on the guitar face. And two students of Tarrega took different stances on whether to pluck strings with fingernails or with flesh alone. The article says the influence of Segovia is why “with fingernails” became the accepted practice. What’s perhaps most interesting is the claimed line of influence from Tarrega to Llobet to Segovia.

Edit: Reading up from the official website for Aaron Shearer’s work, it sounds like Shearer himself went through a “search for methodology” in classical guitar that bears some similarity to the journey @Troy illustrated in the “Cracking The Code” series that so many of us could relate to:

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#35

I know I’ve been pretty quiet since starting the thread, but I just wanted to thank everyone for all the cool contributions so far. I’m learning a lot!

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#36

I am learning some new stuff too! haha! I sort of wish I would have been more inquisitive of my instructors and asked ‘Why are you telling me to do all this? Who told you? Who told them?’

#37

Segovia is a god here ) I mean classical guitar schools in Russia are based on his technique.

As for new things… guitar techinque is still evolving, even these days. For example, it was Nunez who incorporated left hand slaps in flamenko, and now it’s a standard techinique despite the fact that it happend not so long ago (from historical point of view).

Even if we speak about viloins - people consider that there is one unviersal well developed approach… hell, no. A lot of differences, Russian bow, German bow, French (Franco-Belgian) bow, position of thumb which varies from teacher to teacher etc.

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#38

Hi. I have what I hope is a simpler question. I’m the guy who wrote the “pain when picking” thread. I’d been a flat-picker for years but arthritis in my wrist was taking all the fun out. About a month ago, I gave up on the flat pick and started playing solely with my fingers, using mainly the thumb, index and middle fingers and occasionally the ring finger and striking the strings with pads of my fingers because my nails are very short. It works I can play as fast or faster than I’ve recently been able to flat pick, and although I can’t get the volume or crispness of a flat pick, I can get nuances and articulations the flat pick can’t.

My question concerns the sequencing of right hand fingers. I’m an improviser, so I can’t plan finger sequences in advance. I would like to know if there are pattern drills I can use so that correct movement becomes instinctive and I don’t have to unlearn too many bad habits later.

My second question concerns articulations. No doubt there are ways of striking, plucking, etc. that I have not thought of, since using all four fingers is pretty new to me.

Any suggestions?

#39

There are exceptions and plenty of creative players pushing the boundaries, but traditionally classical players would play single note lines with strict alternation between their pick hand index and middle fingers. If you think about it, not a ton different than picking down and up in strict alternations. There are just 2 options, and whichever one you just played, the next note will be ‘the other one’ :slight_smile: So you could do that.

Or, if you aren’t too concerned with tradition, you could play your single note lines alternating between your pick hand thumb and index finger. The argument against that is that the thumb is a heavier digit, so you won’t, by default, get the same evenness of volume you get from picking with 2 more similar fingers (like index and middle).

Joe Pass often played fingerstyle and executed some quick jazz lines. While I am a big fan of his sound, I haven’t studied the nuances of his technique enough to say this with authority. To me it looked like his right hand was just doing what felt natural during single note lines when playing fingerstyle. Sometimes he’d just pluck with the index finger…sometimes alternate index thumb…copious slurs where needed etc.

I’d say start experimenting with rest strokes if you haven’t already. Even without nails, they give a stronger sound than free strokes. That can give certain notes a nice ‘pop’, if you want some variety in your sound. Another cool thing you can do, though not classical at all, is pinch the strings between your picking hand thumb and index finger, pulling away from the body of the guitar, then letting go. Sort of like snapping a rubber band. It gives a neat aggressive sound.

#40

In addition to the traditional method that @joebegly describes:
I would recommend trying to adapt p-m-i in sequence for scale playing. It might be easier to develop fluidity and speed, if traditional i-m doesn’t work for you.
A famous example of this is mark knopfler. His right hand soloing-technique is purely p-i and p-m-i.

The approach that i described has certain “rules” for string changes, similar to USX or DSX flatpicking.
With P-M-I for example ascending string changes with “P” are hard, and descending with “M”.
You’d certainly have to structure your picking around these conditions, but many great improvisers have done so. Tal farlow for example was pure USX I think.
But it can be done, i have some pretty complex runs organized that way, that I could not flatpick at all. If you have a specific lick in mind, I can show you what i mean

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