Rotation vs Deviation tremolo speed troubles!

Playing Technique
#1

Been practising a fair bit lately - wanna record something that sounds good - and since I have a few months off work - spending time getting some polish on!

I’ve just noticed I can’t easily get above 12 notes per second with rotation, but can easily get to 15 with pure wrist deviation. Any one else got this issue? I have to put a ton of effort into even getting to 12 - and it doesn’t feel good - doesn’t feel like something I could do very often even after practising.

I’ve checked this in detail - playing 16th note triplets at 130bpm = 13 notes per second. Recording and counting the bumps on my wave form - deviation is rock solid 13. Rotation is 11 wtf!! even tho with rotation it sounds ok - bizarre!

edit finally figured out what was going on here - @15 nps deviation, I was using elbow movement - but didn’t realize at all, it’s such a subtle thing as the speed increases up to 15.

#2

We’d have to see video to know if there is something wrong with the rotation.

In my experience forearm rotation requires more coordination than some of the others. I can do it faster than anything other than elbow, BUT I have trouble keeping the motion because it wants to revert to a more wristy DSX motion (closer to what I did pre CTC). Just anecdotes of course. Someone who started with rotation and then wanted to learn wrist exclusive motions may report the opposite.

Is there a reason you want to be able to do rotation? For me I just like learning motions sometimes and there isn’t really a practical reason lol. But if for you it’s something like “But I want USX!!!” Then maybe you would get more bang for your buck working your current wrist motion into one that can do USX. Because the wrist can do any escape, it just needs to right posture and possibly tweaks to pick path.

#3

it feels great - always has - it has the “I will hit the string correctly” vibe to it. But I think I have reached my speed limit with it - doesn’t feel like it can go any faster at all. And I think I’m actually doing a hybrid of part wrist deviation and part rotation - it’s like a rocking motion that I’ve always done.

Very interesting that rotation is faster for you! wrist deviation is waaay faster for me at the moment. I don’t have a camera at the moment apart from on my phone - which is a big huge clunky 11" table and the camera sucks.

Thx for you help - Yeah I will test out posture - mostly I’m in my lazy chair watching netflix or chatting to GPT hahah - probably the worst posture ever!

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#4

Pretty sure I have heard Troy say that most rotational movements do have some degree of wrist in them still, so what you are doing, that sounds legit to me.

Oh and with posture, sorry, I meant more pertaining to the overall setup of the wrist/pick grip/approach angle, degree of pronation/supination etc. Though I am sure sitting posture is important too :slight_smile:

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#5

Ok cool. Yeah I think all my setup is ok - I’ve been playing like that for years - and have tried just about every position/setup possible. I do have one big stipulation with my playing - and that is muting - that’s always been the deciding factor when it comes to wrist position. I’m going to try and rig up some kind of splint/cast to prevent rotation and give a week or so of pure deviation practise so if I can get it to a point where I feel it’s clean and usable - I love the speed and tone hit consistency - hate the wild failing about :slight_smile: Out of curiosity what kind of speed are you getting with your rotation?

#6

Trem only I can hit 16ths at the low 220’s for a few measures. Usable playing more like 170 - 190’s. I am just an amateur though :slight_smile:

Rotation is a super capable mechanic. @qwertygitarr has posted clips playing 6’s in the 150 - 160 bpm range with that motion. And not just trem either. Fully synced phrases.

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#7

220 16ths = 22/3*2 = 14.6 notes per second - damn impressive!

170-190 16ths = 11.3 - 12.66 notes per second - still fast!

150-160 16th triplets = 15-16 notes per second - top speedz for syncd patterns!

I think there’s physical limit to this kind of picking for most people - around 15 nps.

#8

Yeah agreed. Even if not necessarily just being able to get our hands that fast (which most people can for a few seconds), the whole aspect of sync and stamina is some really high degree of nervous system coordination only a select few possess. Like Igor

Synced and pretty darn clean for a full minute. Also…rotation! (With some wrist I think)

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#9

Igors speed is great - but you know his guitar tone is all buzz supported by 2 massive synth lines - just being super critical there (coz I can’t play at that speed ha ) - would love to hear just the guitar on it’s own!

Impelliteri does the same thing on parts of 17th century chicken picking.

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#10

I agree with @joebegly that rotation seems to almost always be a “hybrid” motion – it always seems to incorporate some level of RDT in it. I wouldn’t worry about this.

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#11

I’ve now fully looked what was going on here with the speed issue:

I was radial deviating with a USX setting (pick pointing towards me and trajectory path pointing up towards me ) - that actually looks like rotation - I think it’s a hybrid - it’s part rotation as well. As I speed that up it turns more and more into deviation only - and then eventually mostly elbow movement. Never realized this - interesting!

#12

That is what messes with me because when I do it wrong it turns into a shallow DSX. When I attempt the rotation it is always with the intent of USX. So the supinated posture, combined with the unintentional DSX (at the point the motion changes, moving away from what I’m trying to do), I think it becomes fully trapped.

Of further interest is a DBX capable rotation/RDT blend. I’ve never been able to do that one, but I think it actually may be close to the above thing I’ve mentioned. Maybe.