Roy Marchbank's pick and his monster alternate picking

Hopefully, Roy can get on board with the code-lore a little so we can all talk the same talk, because we’ve collectively moved past which pick to use or what drills to practice and on to where to create and refine motion. Regardless of speed, there are only so many things the body can do and there’s every likelihood that Roy’s amazing picking fits into categories already defined and studied here.

I think there is pickslant built into his asymmetrical pick, but like @Troy said, we need a good video of the fast stuff, because the slow version which looks like “cross-picking” isn’t necessarily represented by the blur we get at full speed. The right vision will answer more than anything else.

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Hello there Jakku
Pleased to meet you.
Mmm are you a member of the C the C team? You refer to “we need” material at speed…etc
I am sure you don’t mean to come across as pompous and challenging, but you do. Surely that’s not in the spirit of things here?
As a former researcher to the highest level at one of Scotland’s Ancient Universities, the suggestion that you have defined all there is to define and seen everything you can possibly see would likely be frowned upon. Perhaps all Roy does can be explained by the invented language of Code-lore, or by the language Roy has been using to understand his own technique for 30 years. Perhaps not. One things for sure it’s best not to explain away data squeezing it into established codes no matter how scary or disconcerting something outlying can be. I am incredulous to your implications regarding strict limits in this sense. Science doesn’t work that way, we would never progress if it did!
As Troy noted, Roy brings to the equation variations on the picking you have seen before - surely that’s to be respected not lectured to, demanding he gets on board with “code-lore”? As you see in Roys reply to Troy, he favours Troy’s wording of “Upward Pickslanting” as we are on the Cracking the Code website and in any event must find a common language, but if we wish to use our own terminology elsewhere (or even here whilst Troy and Roy get to understand each other) I see no issue with that. Troy has challenged Roy & John as the type of pickers who might reveal more about upward pick slanting to help him understand more about what they do so we all benefit from that knowledge. I hope they can do that and feel they have the support of everyone on here. Including yourself.
I look forward to you being able to believe the “blurr”you see when C the C and the universities here get the recordings they need from Roy. It will be interesting to understand more from their findings.
If you wish to be less superior in your tone in future I would be prepared to discuss anything with you. Save to say Roy is speaking with Troy so he will be fully aware of what is required and won’t need you to supply the information in advance.
Respectfully yours etc

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I see no reason to get your back up, so please take a breath and a sip of tea for a second and hear me out.

I’m just a forum member and paid subscriber of the CTC material. To clarify what I mean about getting on board with the terminology, Troy has spend a lot of time and effort getting the guitar community to drop talking about things in a roundabout sort of way, and define things in a way that can be replicated by anyone, using terms based in physiology and physics. I’m a firm believer that there terms are spreading throughout guitar pedagogy since cracking the code and will one day become the standard way of referring to things. Not all the best players are the best teachers, and while it’s cool to have an internalised language for how one view’s one’s self and approach, given that we’re in the game of replicating with this kind of study, having us all agree that 2+2=4 will help us solve the greater equations.

I’m not undermining your husband’s talents. The fact that I have to even have this conversation with someone’s wife instead of the player is a bit silly in itself. What I’m saying is that an arm can only move so many ways. A wrist can only move so many ways. Motion can only exist in so many planes. By speaking the same language, we can identify what causes what, and give mere mortals a chance to learn from it. Rather than treat every amazing player like a rare species of unicorn, CtC finds the commonalities between elite players so that we can understand things in a way that wasn’t possible 30 years ago in music schools or at the local guitar teacher.

Just as you correctly assumed that I didn’t mean to come across as challenging, I’m in good faith assuming that you don’t mean to come across as defensive and over-protective.

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Jakku
Now you are simply patronising. A sip of tea? Really? Hahaha
It’s insulting that you feel you should be talking to Roy and not “his wife” who also happens to be an accomplished cellist in her own right and most importantly Roys manager. So being protective doesn’t come into it, I simply note you to be clearly lacking in respect. Not because I or Roy see ourselves in anyway superior but that your tone in anyone’s reading is pompous and challenging.
I am sorry it doesn’t suit you that you were answered by me, in fact I doubt Roy would even have bothered to reply as you weren’t actually asking questions, you were insisting he speaks Code-lore and stating “we need” - like you are an integral part of the team & making assumptions about the pick. Now I realise you are fully on board with the Code and all it stands for and that is wonderful. All you say about the future may well be correct for the Code language and I can see how that could be useful but not exhaustive. My goodness if Physics to name but one science, thought it had reached a finite vocabulary then the world would be in trouble. However, there are many languages in the world to understand music, internalised ones and otherwise, simple & intricate, and we can benefit greatly by cross disciplinary knowledge sharing of these and understanding how other languages give meaning. It doesn’t mean you have to stop speaking your own, it just means being open minded. I hope you can grasp that as I am astounded I am having to explain my position - again.
Now, just so you don’t get even more upset that we may stray from Code-lore , I am sure as we require qualification of any terminology we will be able to consult the team about that. Is there a dictionary or glossary - I mean that in all seriousness? It might be useful to refer newbie Codesters to that? Also you might want to let the guys know who are discussing “which pick do you use” and those following Troy and Roys Drills that - “we’ve moved beyond that”… whoever “we” is they need to catch up huh?!
Regarding the material the team may need that will lie with Roy to supply as and when he can take time out of the series he’s currently recording. I am sure you won’t miss the results.
I noticed a forum topic about criticism for C the C and couldn’t understand how that could be as Troy and his team are doing such good work with what seems to be the benefit to the bigger picture in sight. I admire your passion for all things C the C and look forward to seeing them go from strength to strength. The reason they are good at what they do is that they seek out knowledge and are looking for progress. Please don’t limit their development by being disrespectful and trying to lay down their law as you see it. That never works in any circumstance.
Respectfully yours etc,

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Jilly, I’m here to learn from people like Roy as much as anyone else I can. But as a student it’s helpful for me to do so in a way that is become the increasingly prevailing way of discussing things. You’re at the Cracking The Code forum and getting agitated that I want to hear things in Cracking The Code terms. It’s like going to a lecture in Japan and getting agitated that the students aren’t benefited by you lecturing in Spanish or trying to teach a math class using zen analogies. I can’t participate in this discussion any further with you because we can’t agree on that. I’m pretty sure the laws of physics are widely taught in schools and universities across the world. But hey, buy a pick and don’t ask questions!

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I am not sure you’re even understanding English.

  1. You state that Roy should get on board with the Code-Lore (is that how everyone refers to it? Where can we find all the terminology to learn - notably, you don’t provide that information when invited to do so). I reply to you to point out that, in fact, apart from mentioning that he calls upward Pick slanting “upward angle picking” Roy makes NO further reference to his own highly developed language (30 years in the making from a man meticulous enough to play the way he does and understand it) I assure you it is not vague or solely internalised. This aside, the Code-lore (as we understand it so far!) was used in all replies to Troy - so your issue appears to be with my mail replying to Troy suggesting that we might learn from each other’s languages? That we might discover new things from John or Roy?( as Troy himself implies when he states the world can learn from how they pick!) . That is what academics live for - new things - it’s their currency. May be we won’t learn anything from Roy & John, may be we will - that’s the thrill of science. One certainly rarely conducts an experiment when the outcome is given or preordained!
  2. In lectures all over the world sit academics who speak different languages but to a large degree, as you suggest, they share the common language of their ancient subject across the faculties, one being the sciences. Although they have well established terminology they also have flexibility to absorb or invent further terms to more fully encapsulate what they have found. The Academy then teaches this to their students and the new terminology becomes part of the common language. Code-lore is not an ancient language yet and I am sure over time, as and when it becomes widespread, it will be incredibly useful but I doubt Troy would ever let it stagnate by telling us all that he has discovered all there is to know and that’s it for Cracking the Code discourse. That’s counter initiative & professional suicide for any academic or even a business person who needs to keep things fresh and ahead of the pack. So although I see your perfectly valid basic point re using a common language, there was no need to panic that anyone was going to impose anything new on you or to express your initial mail (not addressed to Roy specifically, so anyone could reply) in such pompous terms. You were merely answered in similar strong terms and if you don’t like that then tempre your tone in future. It’s only fair to wish respect when I am happy to give it to you if it’s shown to us initially. I imagine that is part of Code-Lore too,

For the record, in the most basic terms for which you argue, we actually agree, but on all else in terms of how you offer unqualified conjecture, I will be prepared to readily address that. I see little difference between men and women in terms of being intellectual equals and to suggest you’re just speaking to “someone’s wife” is rather dated & to use your word, silly…

When you stated to speak of unicorns you proved all my points about where you’re coming from and I switched off. So yes, gladly we shall leave it there and I wish you much success in your onward learning journey. As a dedicated scholar all my adult life I can understand that the more you know the more there is to learn - always. Perhaps that’s the first thing to take on board.

Respectfully yours etc.

Ps: Yes, watch Roys pick demo and ask lots of questions, we encourage it? but don’t assume - it’s not the way to learn.

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Hi @Troy.

I’m curious to know human limits concerning movement speeds also. I think it’s interesting to know what’s possible on guitar, even if it’s not musically interesting.

Years ago, I was a member of a few internet forums where the topic of speed came up frequently. On several of these forums, there was a user named willjay who had compiled hundreds of clips of fast playing and had accurately clocked the rates. You might have have read some of these discussions or even taken part in them.

I think that willjays’s criteria was somewhat extreme. To make his list, the lick had to be played with strict alternate picking and last for at least one second. His method was to find the fastest second long clip he could find and count the notes in that second. I had a discussion with him once on Eric Johnson’s official forum, where he indicated to me that he felt this was the only reasonable use of the term “notes per second,” where I felt (and still believe) that the term describes a rate.

Interestingly, willjay divided his list into “controlled” movements and “arm spasm” movements, and had little appreciation of the latter. The fastest “controlled” movements he clocked were of Shawn Lane in the 18-19 note per second range, while other players, including some forum members, we able to reach rates of about 24 notes per second using the “arm spasm” movements.

I find it very interesting that willjay’s results for “arm spasm” picking are roughly in agreement with the 12 Hertz you’ve mentioned in your post, which is why I’ve mentioned his list in this post. In fact, I think the 12 Hertz limit you’ve mentioned is interesting as it indicates that the fastest anybody could play anything with string hopping movements is 12 notes per second. This in turn reminds me of the Steve Morse interview analysis, where it was suggested that the speed of Tumeni Notes (about 14 notes per second), was above what can be accomplished with string hopping.

I’ve always been a little dubious of some of the Shawn Lane licks that willjay claimed were played at those speeds with strict alternate picking. For example, when demonstrating his signature diminished string skips on Power Licks, Shawn claims it can be played “picking every note,” but when the video is slowed down, it can be seen that he wasn’t in fact picking note. He also describes some picking licks as being “strict” alternate picking licks, but which are in fact involve some economical string changes to fit a DWPS orientation. When playing descending 6s however, Shawn definitely was able to reach 18-19 notes per second with alternate picking, as it’s a one-way pickslanting lick.

I’ve also also always suspected that Shawn introduced some elbow movement when he was really burning. When I watch this performance of Not Again and the outro jam, and in particular the speed picking licks beginning at 4:56, it really looks to me lick the driving force of the picking movement is elbow based, with a deviation-like wrist movement occuring because the wrist is so relaxed.

When I slow down the video in Transcribe!, it still looks like this warp-speed mechanic is primarily driven by small movement from the elbow.

For those who are interested, willjay’s list can still be found online via Google. Roy doesn’t appear on the list, but as he’s using controlled movements to play strict alternate picking patterns that are synchronized with the left hand, and which move across strings, he should qualify.

Other techniques, be it hammers and pull-offs, sweeping and tapping can all allow for higher speeds, and I think it’s equally interesting to consider what’s possible with those techniques also. In Rowan J Parker video where Roy demonstrates his “ludicrous legato,” which is apparently (I haven’t verified this) 32nd notes at 200bpm, which is just shy of 27 notes per second.

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Hi Tom. It’s interesting that you use the term “spasm”, because one thing Kate Saul discusses, which you’ll see in her interview, is that @milehighshred’s technique is not spasmodic. The EMG data shows this clearly. Spasmodic movements are intermittently / irregularly fast, and their EMG pattern looks like a bunch of random spikes. John’s does not. To her, John’s technique, even when it’s “just” tremolo, is a controlled movement.

So I’m not really sure there is such a thing as an uncontrolled picking movement, at least in biomechanical terms. It might be harder to do hand synchronization with some types of picking movements. Or it might not. How many of those 24nps players you’re referring to really had good hand sync at any of the classic 200bpm+ “fast” speeds? If the answer is, not many, I’d look there first for the explanation.

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Good Morning Tom

To quote you in context from earlier regarding what you reckon is Roys alternate picking string crossing speed per second that you calculated using Transcribe:

“…,20+ notes per second synchronized with the fretting hand and moving across strings is exceptional, and it really doesn’t look like he’s pushing himself to his limits.”

You’re right, Roy likely isn’t pushing himself to his limits in terms of the Drill Set you did your analysis on as its been recorded to teach excercises first slowly and then faster to give an idea of what can be achieved. (Then also in the series, how these techniques can be applied to real music making). A point sadly missed when we get bogged down in speed dialogue & lists. I can see why it’s interesting to a degree but it only becomes really of value when it’s applied to how we understand and perhaps mend and preserve the human body in extremes such as traumatic states.

Firstly, as you’re talking about pure speed, the limits of the human body as we know it in the developed world in 2017, we none of us know what’s absolutely accurate for Roys speed or any of those people on Willjays list. Incidentally I really find lists a drag as if you’re not on it does that some how make you less worthy? You see what I mean. At the time Willjays list was compiled Roy was working in construction in Barcelona trying to make ends meet for his son & partner at the time so one can safely assume he would be under Willjays all star radar . It’s very kind of you to note in your opinion though that Roy could be included on Willjays list, as could John no doubt be included on many of the so called reliable lists on the internet of “the fastest guitar players” . This is Willjays list (link below) it is it the most up to date one I can find, is this what you were talking about? This is 11 years old may be older (on this forum in 2006) . Whatever analysis tools he was using were forerunners in technology to what CTC are using now and what the Worlds Universities have at their disposal.

I agree with you and do like how Willjay says he selects the fastest example of notes per second, as measurement, for each players speed, as this is the only way he suggests to get exactly what you’re looking for. The problem arises when attempting to compare and contrast the myriad players on his or any other list. In Willjays list he states notes per second & his rating of accuracy (though as yet I have failed to track down what he claims to be his totally reliable method of analysis etc). Incidentally I think it must be very hard if you’re analysing any thing that’s eg “the fastest” to keep bias completely out of these things when you are heavily involved in the guitar community. So many conflicts of interest could arise which is why it’s so important to have complete transparency and an open minded professional team when data collecting & using method & applying methodology. The data findings in their original form and those that the research team collates, writes up &presents must be beyond reproach in their handling of that process. Furthermore access to their workings should be available to anyone who wants to see them. It’s not always the case though and self-appointed “experts” get to influence with what can be rather dubious findings (even if they’re not aware that’s what they are doing!) It’s a minefield ethically especially when dealing with comparing speeds of DPS and then UPS players and then tremolo only scenarios…it makes your head spin as to how the accuracy of such a list could ever be achieved when it doesn’t compare like for like under a exacting clinical setting, as occurs in the University Analysis that Troy posted earlier…For the reasons I mention this is partly why lists like Willjays fall short of any real scientific mark. I think Roy is lucky to have escaped it’s attention. The pertinent thing is what’s happening now and with today’s analytical equipment in controlled and reliable experiments along with up to the minute examples of today’s top players.
Speaking of which, the most up to date Legato of Roy is a fun bit he calls “Space Invaders” at the end of Drill Set 5-8 released yesterday on YouTube. If you want to analyse that with Transcribe it’s going to give you an idea of his Legato speed for what it’s worth. It’s certainly not his maximum potential for Legato though. Again if we want to do that we need to wait for Roy to provide the slow recordings Troy has asked for and my university will be interested in analysing.
I think this thread has raised some really interesting points and illuminated areas for further study. Thanks CTC for providing this platform.

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Hello again Troy.

Thanks for your questions. I will try to answer as briefly and concisely as I can here on the forum.

Yes you are correct about how my Phat Bhoy pick works on the bevelled edge side, I do not play trailing edge as my pick is intentionally designed to eradicate trailing edge picking, because I find trailing edge picking a tone killer. The trailing edge tone can be improved with right hand muting. However, I prefer not to right hand mute and I prefer the sound of the open string. When I occassionally mute I use the edge of the thumb and forefinger on the right hand to produce a pizzicato type pick sound. This will be demonstrated later on in one of my Drill Sets. The cone edge of the pick and the bevel is designed to compensate for any tone lost and in fact improves tone. Getiing the sides right on the pick is very important and this is why I hand finish and test every one to make the pick as accurate as I can for a DWPS or an UWPS player. In short the bevel on the pick in my experience gives the cleanest sound possible. If you use trailing edge picking with a clean amp sound the result is not as clear as it would be if you play with the flat side of any pick.The beauty of the Phat Bhoy having the cone and bevel edges helps to produce a clean bell like sound .I feel this is paramount in what you call the art of ultra picking in order to achieve clean note definition. For further indepth information about how the pick was designed, developed and how it works there is another in depth interview coming up with myself and Rowan J Parker specifically on The Phat Bhoy.

If I played with anything other than a Phat Bhoy Pick then I am sure I would edge pick but that is not the case. I wouldn’t want another kind of pick but that is my choice, not a plug, we all have preferences. I pick slant with my pick that has a bevelled edge - it keeps the pick parallel to the string - end of. I liked your illustration using Andy Wood, makes things very clear for all. Andy is a great player and indeed Jilly and I both enjoy his work. Yes in my playing the pick slant goes in the direction of the teal coloured line on decent and contrary on the ascent, as you would expect.

“No Capes” hahaha but the smart phone will be sussed out for recording at the speed you have suggested as soon as I have time to apply mysef to that. My new Up Close Guitar Series has a demanding schedule along with transcribing my exercises, finishing plecs and helping to look after 3 children! I see you have sent me a private e mail also so I will get back to you on anything not covered here by return and impart anything else I feel is relevant there.

Thank you for your insights and interest.
My best
Roy.

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Hello Troy,
How about a CTC interview featuring Roy and his jaw-dropping technique?
That would be super-interesting.
(Just when I think I’ve seen it all CTC introduces me to yet another amazing picker!)
Thanks

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Right on Roy. Fyi I have not emailed you privately so if you’re seeing something, it’s not me, or something’s up with the forum software. Let us know if that’s the case and we’ll take a look.

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@Roy_Marchbank, I just wanted to tell you that your guitar playing impresses the hell out of me. I was completely blown away by what you can do the first time I saw you. You are a definite inspiration for me to take my playing further.

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I replied to your mail that came in to my e mail Troy . It turned out the mail you posted here with Andy’s picture was what came through there as well. I sent you the same reply back in case it was easier for you to see my reply there (the only reason I could think of that the mail had been replicated to my e mail!). If the same thing happens again I will know to ignore the duplicate. You might want to check my reply though as there was a couple extra things I added in at the end of my mail. Best Roy.

Hi @milehighshred
John, great to hear from you! This is the kind of feedback that makes it all worthwhile. With up coming generations curious about developing their technique as far as they can push it, its of up most importance to me that I can pass on what I have learnt to the widest audience, I know CTC can help me do that. My integrity as a “fast” player is sometimes questioned as those people don’t believe what they are seeing, but as you know, this is for real, and more to the point the purpose of using speed is to have the muscle memory instinctively react to play whatever music you hear in your mind. I am glad you have had the opportunity to show what you can do and have it verified and most importantly that it can be put to good use. Whatever happens with CTC to explain my playing it will be interesting for me but essentailly if it can, as you say, inspire younger players to take their playing further then thats the reward!
My very best to you. Roy.

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@bob
Thanks for your encouragement. An interview would be awesome. I would like to be able to impart my knowledge through CTC.
Lets see what happens.
My best Roy

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Shred on, Roy. That’s some fast *** mf playin’ :fire::guitar::fire: I would love to see ya in a CTC interview. It’s cool to see you in the forum. Wow.

-Hanky Pooh :bear:

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I think that just shows how impressive what you do is. And, pretty damn cool that I got a response from you :slight_smile: senpai noticed me :smiley:

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When I see 3 guys like mister Taylor, mister Marchbank, and mister Grady here in one thread it’s just like… wow… It’s like I managed somehow to sneak into a justice league meeting

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Cheers bud, I look forward to seeing how things unfold too. Happy to be part of the forum.
My best Roy

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