Simple Economy picked line issue

hey everyone - I just got an iphone 17 and it’s most certainly made things easier to see and create - plus the darn thing stays in the magnet so I can focus on playing instead of worrying about the darn thing falling off my guitar!

Okay so the clip is something I have been fighting with for a bit… Changes I have made to my setup; I am a lot less pronated and have been trying to phase out using my shoulder to track. The issues are as follows;

  • sounds like dogshit - (Play better then, right?)
  • weird chirpy overtones - Using a flow nylon pick 1.14
  • garbled, undefined mess - looking for a bit of rhythmic control!

Musically it’s not that great, but I feel strongly that if I can solve this, I can solve a bunch of other things also. Any thoughts that anyone might have on this are totally welcome, thanks in advance! I have gained an idea or two from looking at it also - however, I value the collective knowledge of the community here so before I get crackin’ I thought I’d see if anyone had any thoughts, notices anything, etc. I’d like to get this solved before I torture poor Tommo again here in the new year…

Hey! Im in a similar position to you in that Ive taken my playing back to basics to try and fix a fundamental problem to solve lots of things. Dont give up!

I cant quite make out the angle of your pick against the strings, but pick noise in increased the further angled it is. The chirp will be down to the exact pick material/thickness/profile that you are using. Chances are that you are noticing it now seeing as you are paying special attention to your technique so you are hyper aware. It isnt particularly prominent tbh, i wouldnt worry about that.

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I’m not an expert here at all but it seems like you’re using a lot of force and you’re pretty deep into the string. So the pick has to push harder through the string. I think maybe if you brought the tip higher it might glide through better.

Don’t quote me.

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I’m not saying this definitely can’t work, because people have made all sorts of things work, but ascending economy with this form will be an uphill battle, imo. Right now your string crossing downstroke sweeps are not right - you are passing through both strings more or less simultaneously, or sometimes perhaps not hitting one at all. Compare this to your descending, upstroke sweeps, which are much more rhythmically accurate. This is at least partially due to the upward slant you have going on throughout: economy picking wants the slant to match the direction (down for ascending, up for descending).

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Really great replies, I am grateful for the insights guys!

I “thought” I was edge picking a bit more than I actually am, it looks like about 45 degrees ish, which based on some experimentation today seems to be a bit more advantageous on the descent than the ascent utilizing this trailing edge grip.

HAH! I quoted you! Actually, I have had this thing where I dive 'under" the strings resulting in the pick being trapped. It’s better than it was in most situations, but here in a situation where I am going between alternate picked notes that use my natural escape (downstroke) I have a theory that in an effort to “restrain” that escaping downstroke and control it, I end up overcompensating and sending the note downwards. A contributing factor is very likely that in this situation I don’t have an intuitive way to track (reposition my hand for the next string change) so I likely started using my shoulder to push my whole arm, which while it works/worked in many situations it’s not really conducive to efficiency. Good point on lightening up and getting more of a glide, I have been messing with that all morning. We’ll see where it ends up!

hahaha Yes, yes it is!

I observed this. It’s literally a strum! It’s interesting how the video makes it plain to see and hear!

Yes, this makes nothing but sense. It’s interesting how actually unaware that I am “not” doing this despite actively “trying” to do it. I mean, the descending bit in the video is rough also, but generally it’s more successful. Perhaps the solution is to exaggerate the motion/setup/slant that I want, drop the tempo for a bit and just get used to the feeling of the motion with “ascending only” type playing examples and ramp up the tempo once I have convinced myself that I am certain as to how it feels, then verify with video?

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Feel weird commenting on economy picking on a site that has instruction vids from Frank Gambale :crazy_face: buuuutttt what helped me get my economy scales even and fast was practicing them with rest strokes, all down ascending, all up descending (as follows)

image

after practicing like this for a period of time when you finally try economy again it will feel like taking the training wheels off your bicycle.
Additionally it does wonders for your downpicking.

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I am really stupid and completely untalented or I would quit asking/posting. I know it’s there, and I have watched it to death but I still can’t seem to succeed. Perhaps I just can’t pick, might be all there is to it.

Thanks so much for your input, much appreciated- I will give it a whirl.

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You are far from stupid and untalented and you actually ask many great questions that I know help a lot of people here. Economy picked scales is a tricky topic and I don’t know if it has been discussed and/or if it fits into the “Starting with speed” methodology. Personally I don’t feel that it does. More about hand synchronization and starting slow and accurate is side that I fall on.

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You’re definitely not stupid or untalented! Ha

I suspect that this particular type of economy picking may simply be more difficult with a trailing edge grip, BUT I have zero evidence for this. Just a hunch.

Yeah, I think it’s all really tricky. The right hand in regards to picking is mysterious and… elusive. There is no real “magic button” to solve a lot of this stuff so I have to ask questions, and sadly some of them may have been asked before! Hah!

Thanks again, all input is appreciated! Just thought I should let you know exactly what kind of knuckledragger is posting here! Hahaha

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Okay, so I spent quite a bit of time messing around with the suggestions given here, as well as some ideas of my own and I came to the conclusion that although I can execute an ascending “economy picked” thing, it’s not great. I don’t like how it sounds or how it feels rhythmically and I hate how much work goes into getting it to sound even passable. Right out of the gate, straight DSX with 4nps or 4+2nps for scales sounds way better (to my ears) and hybrid picked or combo of dsx alternate, hybrid pluck and a hammeron and then descend economy picked I think is better.

I’ve been leaning towards this strategy for quite some time, but couldn’t quite put my finger on what was “not” working. For me, and my setup the sweep/economy thing seems to work best when it happens on an upstroke. Downstroke sweeps just… feel incompatible when combined with a scalar bit and alternate picking. I am thinking avoidance is maybe the best practice here; y’know work on things that I can actually improve at as opposed to beating myself to death on things that just don’t work for me. And I hope that doesn’t come across as “throwing in the towel” because I think that the ummm “alternatives” work pretty well, and with a bit of time and energy would probably fit right in.

Any thoughts are welcome, apologies for the crap playing hahaha but it’s an ok starting point I think, yes? Something to build on…

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Skimming the video, what’s fun here is that I can hear the confidence you’ve built up in your natural motion. It’s sounding better and better.

Also I think I’m hearing your vibrato improve too.

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Hey! Thanks for checking it out. I am super-duper self conscious about my picking. It’s like… a “thing” at this point. I have invested all kinds of time, taken all kinds of lessons and paid the bill - basically done a lot of research into myself hahaha until I absolutely know what won’t work. I realize now that there’s not a “magic button” for me. Other people, sure. I mean Steve Morse was a picking god and he managed to whip his hand into shape until he could alternate pick anything. Frank Gambale is a sweep/economy master. Marshall Harrison is the same thing, sweep to extremes and then added hybrid picking.

But I am not any of those guys. I am a completely different person, with a different physiology a different set of experiences and an individual set of tastes and interests.

While the video is super rough, I think that it shows some potential to develop a vocabulary that covers most bases, even within the primitive content within the video. While it would be nice, and much simpler to just have “one” technique that covers everything and use that as my strategy it’s not realistic with my motion. If I go back to “elbow” and a grip like Frank’s, sweep and economy really opens up ascending or descending- but I don’t like how difficult it seems to be able to accent properly and get lines that are rhythmically correct and groove. Some people can do it, but I can’t. And I am okay with a little bit of the “loose cascade” sound for some things, but a lot of that just sounds like a mess to me. Haha hurts my soul when I do it!

So I think the “strategy” is this;

Even NPS (2,4,6) sequences = alternate picking and good ‘ole DSX

Odd NPS ie 3 NPS or sequences of 5/7 scales are a combined approach, alt, sweep, legato and hybrid.

My sweep rule; avoid a downstroke sweep in my mixed scalar runs. Heck, avoid it even in arpeggios- best practices (for me) is to do sweeps/economy strokes on an upstroke.

Hybrid “more often than not” rule - “usually” hybrid pick after an upstroke, and usually do a downstroke after a hybrid pluck.

That’s just me, and dang it if it doesn’t just seem a bit complicated but honestly it’s what works. Time spent with @Tom_Gilroy has been absolutely foundation building. It’s been a while, and I have gone off and tried lots of other stuff, but at the end of the day what we developed is I think what will yield good results. @tommo suffered through many a TC with me trying to do something that just isn’t playing to my own strengths, and since I am both a bit dense and stubborn as a mule I had to go the long way up the mountain and learn the hard way.

I think that at this point, the real questions when facing a challenging bit of music are 1) Can it be arranged for even NPS 2) is an upstroke sweep/economy note possible to make it work 3) can a hybrid pluck be applied without adding too much of an unwanted disruption (tone/rhythm)
4) is hammer-on/pull-off an option?

Lots to think about. I am envious that lots of people who play don’t have to come up with work-arounds or problem solve the lines - it just isn’t obvious to me how to do a “one way fits all” type thing, ie economy pick everything or DBX master. And to be honest, I may have stopped caring! Hahahaha

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