Slow it down in order to clean it up? Or push through until it is?

[DC11GTR]

In my TC a couple of weeks back, I was told to get to a cruising speed at a certain tempo in order to know if the motion is real or not. I’ve hit that tempo (yay me!!) and I guess that means the motion is real… It certainly feels real but I don’t know if I’d say it’s “cruising” yet. In the week or so since, I’ve been practicing at only that speed, with the occasional drop if it’s not going well. I spend more time playing and doodling, but when I set a time to practice, I try to actually practice.

The thing is that I have to really focus up to keep it going for long periods of time. I can do short bursts just fine, but keeping it going doesn’t seem to be doing anything but keeping it going. There are the occasional times where it’s easier than other times, but I haven’t noticed much of an increase in stamina or more frequent ease. I took a day off from practicing on Sunday and when I practiced last night, hitting that speed at all was tough, even just doing a steady 16th tremolo. Tonight is better but not better overall.

So, should I keep going at this speed until it’s easy? Or should I slow it down and keep it going for longer? Or, and this would suck… Does it mean that the speed I am supposed to be “cruising” isn’t actually the speed I should be? Speaking of that, why that particular tempo? Anyways…

I start with a tremolo on each string for 20+ seconds, usually longer on the lower 2 since they’re more difficult. Then I go to the YJM6’s and some whatever fingerings on one string. These all feel mostly fine. I don’t have to look at my hand, but I do tap the hell out of my foot to make sure I don’t slip.

But then I start traveling. And this is where I wonder about the speed thing. I have to stare at my hand and basically will it to maintain the same motion and and not start hopping, even though it’s a very tiny hop. YJM12’s are good. The YJM6’s, a little less so. Petrucci’s chromatic thing is about the same. Let’s not even talk about 2nps. That shit’s a long ways off, lol. But even backing off about 10-15bpm, everything seems far easier than that small drop seems. Like it’s the difference between working hard to do it and doing it in my sleep. Should that be my actual “cruising” speed?

And what about when it’s time to go faster? Right now, going faster seems like a terrible idea and I doubt I could even do it. But how do I know when it’s time? And how much faster should I go? I’ve never really been a metronome guy aside from testing myself. I just played riffs and licks until they eventually got up to speed. But I’m not young anymore and trying to get licks faster that way I doubt will work.

[bradejensen]

How new are these phrases or fragments to your hands (your mind and ear also having now learned the mechanics, possibly even the theoretical mechanics behind the sound)?

I know when I learn new gypsy jazz phrases that it takes about 2 to 3 days after the initial first day of imprinting the picking articulation and fingering into my hands before I can really hit that effortless subconscious mark where the speed will start to inch faster and faster the more i utilize the phrase.

What about PDL6s? Here is a phrase I came up with kind of combines 2 things. (Sorry this is USX if you are DSX just alter it accordingly for your hands)

[joebegly]

@bradejensen

What about PDL6s?

PDL = Paco De Lucia 6’s? I’ve never heard of these being attributed to him but he definitely deserves to have his own immortalized lick I’ve always found that pattern easier than the YJM 6’s

@DC11GTR

So, should I keep going at this speed until it’s easy? Or should I slow it down and keep it going for longer?

It’s a new motion to you, correct? I think given how long you’ve been playing it’s expected that it’s going to take focus to maintain the motion and not have it “slip” into something else. Either way, variety is good and I don’t see any reason to wait on slowing down longer and working on stamina (as long as you’re sure the motion isn’t changing as you slow it down). This also doesn’t mean to “stop” pushing the speed. So, rather than either/or, do both. Definitely give this a watch if you haven’t already:

Chapter 11 - Improving Wrist Endurance

Also, this

Chapter 4 - Easy, Fast, And Loud

Good sanity check there.

@DC11GTR

And what about when it’s time to go faster? Right now, going faster seems like a terrible idea and I doubt I could even do it. But how do I know when it’s time? And how much faster should I go? I’ve never really been a metronome guy aside from testing myself. I just played riffs and licks until they eventually got up to speed. But I’m not young anymore and trying to get licks faster that way I doubt will work.

I know you’re goal is desert rose, but what about some EJ tunes that are a more relaxed tempo? 2 of my favorites are

Pavilion

and

S.R.V.

Also, even though it’s got some pretty fast stuff, there are also some more moderate speed licks in

Camel's Night Out

If you can play any of that stuff, and it feels “easy” then it’s time to go faster!!! If it doesn’t feel easy…the motion has probably slipped back to what you’re used to.

Lastly, I’ve seen in your TC and some other posts where you’ve asked Troy some updated questions and his answer has always been “same advice I gave you in the TC applies”, so it may be worth double checking that to see if you’re at the point where it’s “time for something different” or still in the phase of what he’s prescribed.

Good luck!

[bradejensen]

@joebegly

PDL = Paco De Lucia 6’s? I’ve never heard of these being attributed to him but he definitely deserves to have his own immortalized lick I’ve always found that pattern easier than the YJM 6’s

haha it is just kinda to show that you cant really put these combinations to any of these players. but if it is to categorize the patterns for your own mental compartmentalization then it is a fantastic way to help with a way to remember these patterns.

[joebegly]

Yes, “Yngwie” 6’s…“The Paul Gilbert Lick” etc

Did you make up PDL 6’s yourself though, or have you heard someone else refer to it? Lol!

[bradejensen]

you would have to analyze all the music prior but something as simple as 312321 or 212321 is obviously going to appear all over in other music before these guys ever were born. not to mention what about the guys who aren’t famous that did these patterns before these guys. they are just in the limelight so it is easy to idolize, and worship these players. grabbing inspiration from them is one thing, but to say they have ownership over something as fragmented as that short of a sequence is a bit much. same could be said about j.s. bach.

we only have 5 fingers, not very many permutations you can spin around on your right hand on a keyboard. you wanna add in the other hand? ok 10 finger permutations :D. so if i come up with one do i own it?

[bradejensen]

@joebegly

Yes, “Yngwie” 6’s…“The Paul Gilbert Lick” etc

Did you make up PDL 6’s yourself though, or have you heard someone else refer to it? Lol!

you think this is crazy?

https://ianring.com/musictheory/about.php

how can you own a scale name LMAO!

[Riffdiculous]

@bradejensen

how can you own a scale name LMAO!

Probably done by Gene Simmons.

All the Dumb Shit Gene Simmons Has Tried to Trademark

[DC11GTR]

@bradejensen

How new are these phrases or fragments to your hands (your mind and ear also having now learned the mechanics, possibly even the theoretical mechanics behind the sound)?

The YJM6’s and 12’s are new, but everything else is either old or random. It’s just for hand sync. I used to run Vai’s 10 hour workout instead of scales (1,2,3,4 on E/2,3,4,1 on A/3,4,2,1 on D, etc) so I’m basically doing that kind of thing on 1 string. I like that PDL6’s one. I’ll try that later.

@joebegly

It’s a new motion to you, correct? I think given how long you’ve been playing it’s expected that it’s going to take focus to maintain the motion and not have it “slip” into something else. Either way, variety is good and I don’t see any reason to wait on slowing down longer and working on stamina (as long as you’re sure the motion isn’t changing as you slow it down). This also doesn’t mean to “stop” pushing the speed. So, rather than either/or, do both.

Entirely new, yes. Keeping the motion the same and not “slipping” is what I’m focusing on the most. I don’t try to revert to my default anymore, which is certainly an improvement, but I can tell my hand wants to hop or my finger/thumb wants to adjust.

@joebegly

I know you’re goal is desert rose, but what about some EJ tunes that are a more relaxed tempo? 2 of my favorites are

It’s funny you posted Pavillion. I started working on that again a few days ago. I learned it back when it came out, along with Manhattan, Camel’s Night Out, SRV and Trademark. I had everything down really well aside from the fast parts. I went back to playing Pavillion the other day because there’s only a few licks in it that are tough (1:00 and 1:54 and 3:40). It’s such a fun tune to play through since so much is diads and triads instead of single note melodies in all the Satch and Vai tunes I learned. I decided it was the first song I was going to learn front to back in this new journey I’m on lol

I wonder if it was the way I approached this “project.” I didn’t work up to the 190, I started it at 190 and pushed myself to get there. I could mostly maintain a tremolo there at first, but the hand sync took some work. When I had my “break-through” I would start out in my usual DSX to get it all going and then go back to it on occasion to double check and compare it to my new USX.

Thanks y’all!

[joebegly]

I can’t locate it but Troy had some video recently where he described the motor learning process as these sort of “programs” that your nervous system deploys. Ex: someone can do DSX at 170, quite comfortably. They develop a USX motion and only work on it at slower speeds (but it is USX at these speeds). They try to play USX at 170 and…it turns to DSX because that’s the “program” the nervous system deploys.

I’m sure I’m botching that and I can’t recall the fix (doh) but it totally makes sense. I’ll see if I can dig that up. Can’t remember if it was a platform video or YT…might be another good supplement for you, plus I’d love to recall what the fix is. I suspect it’s some amount of forcing ourselves to do the new motion at the target speed and stay away from the “slower” one but I could be wrong.

[DC11GTR]

I’m sure it something like that. It’s gotten more and more consistent but I don’t know if I can say that it’s gotten easier, which is why I made the thread. Easier in that it’s relaxed and always there, which right now it’s not. At least for traveling. When I’m well warmed up, the tremolo is nice, but the traveling ease seems to be random.

[bradejensen]

@joebegly

I can’t locate it but Troy had some video recently where he described the motor learning process as these sort of “programs” that your nervous system deploys. Ex: someone can do DSX at 170, quite comfortably. They develop a USX motion and only work on it at slower speeds (but it is USX at these speeds). They try to play USX at 170 and…it turns to DSX because that’s the “program” the nervous system deploys.

Interesting. I kind of think this speed thing it is contextual. Like it depends on where the motion you are feeling is trying to travel. Like a wind up phase if you will, as well as a wind down phase. You can sometimes see this when players utilize different motor mechanics for the same kind of techniques, and it depends on where they are in this wind up or wind down phase which one they will use.

[Ruefus]

@Riffdiculous

@bradejensen

how can you own a scale name LMAO!

Probably done by Gene Simmons.

All the Dumb Shit Gene Simmons Has Tried to Trademark

Call Gene Simmons whatever you like…but calling him stupid would be terribly inaccurate.

I knew he wasn’t your average Rocker when I learned he speaks English, German, Hungarian, Hebrew and Japanese. You’d never know it, but English isn’t his native language. He’s Israeli, so its Hebrew.

[joebegly]

@DC11GTR

It’s funny you posted Pavillion. I started working on that again a few days ago. I learned it back when it came out, along with Manhattan, Camel’s Night Out, SRV and Trademark. I had everything down really well aside from the fast parts. I went back to playing Pavillion the other day because there’s only a few licks in it that are tough (1:00 and 1:54 and 3:40). It’s such a fun tune to play through since so much is diads and triads instead of single note melodies in all the Satch and Vai tunes I learned. I decided it was the first song I was going to learn front to back in this new journey I’m on lol

I made some tabs for this here a while ago. Just took another look and (quickly) added in some picking, which was obvious to me as I was going through it but quite possibly not obvious to someone else

Pavillion

As per usual, my transcriptions are like 95% (being generous) accurate but it follows “the rules” of his system and might give you some ideas.

[DC11GTR]

I like your version at 1:00 more than mine.

Starting with the pinky/ring for a 2nps is stupid, lol.

[joebegly]

Funny, sometimes “on purpose” he’ll do stuff others might think is stupid. Ex: have you ever noticed how in Desert Rose, the first 3 notes of the solo he play entirely by sliding the pinky? (13 15 16 on the high E)

Eric Johnson - Desert Rose

I remember reading his column in guitar world where he talked about that and said no other finger combo gave him the tone he wanted and even though it was awkward, that’s what he did. So… lol!

It may be the power of suggestion, but I think I can sort of hear that (when I play it myself, doing all pinky or a more “sane” approach lol). I’m pretty tone conscious from all the classical stuff I’ve played since “that’s their thing in that genre”, creating tone exclusively with the fingers. I get things can be pretty subtle but…jeez…I doubt if EJ had have recording those 3 notes with fingers 1, 2 and 3 if anyone would have cared.

[DC11GTR]

@joebegly

So, rather than either/or, do both. Definitely give this a watch if you haven’t already:

Chapter 11 – Improving Wrist Endurance – Cracking the Code

Also, this

This video in particular is where I started to rethink my entire motion and considered starting over. I didn’t end up doing that but the “slowing down to clean up” thing was based on the unused muscles mentioned in the clip. I thought I needed to start at 10bpm or some shit and use as little movement as possible, haha. It was a tiny PTSD moment and I was able to go back to what I was doing.

[DC11GTR]

What the f…

There’s a old joke that EJ couldn’t quite get his tone the way he wanted until he switched the top-left and bottom-right screws on his Marshall cabs from nickle to steel… I don’t know if that’s a joke anymore…

While I can certainly HEAR the differences in these things once they’re pointed out, I can’t say THIS is better than THAT. But I’ve also never heard a tone in my head that I tried to get out of a rig. Even when I had access to just about everything. I’d plug in to something I liked and tweak it here and there and move on. I have a lot of respect for players that play a line, then made the slightest of adjustments to a knob on their guitar and then do it a few more times to get it just right. Like I said, I hear the difference, but I don’t know why one is better than the other.

[joebegly]

@DC11GTR

While I can certainly HEAR the differences in these things once they’re pointed out, I can’t say THIS is better than THAT. But I’ve also never heard a tone in my head that I tried to get out of a rig. Even when I had access to just about everything. I’d plug in to something I liked and tweak it here and there and move on. I have a lot of respect for players that play a line, then made the slightest of adjustments to a knob on their guitar and then do it a few more times to get it just right. Like I said, I hear the difference, but I don’t know why one is better than the other.

Same here, dude lol!

[bradejensen]

here i was sort of doodling around with these patterns tonight and this is pretty basic but maybe you could find some inspiration from it

there is a double down maneuver in measure 6 beat grouping 3 on that la so fa “mi” phrygian sweep progression the sweep down down down goes into another down to start beat grouping 4 of the 212321 pattern. watch joe stumps interview on here for a quick rundown from a metal shred perspective, or check out some gypsy jazz stuff on it.