Slow it down in order to clean it up? Or push through until it is?

I think it’s important that I clarify something.

It may be entirely possible for a person to have some limitations which will prevent them from being able to play fast. Whatever the origin of these perceived limitations may be is usually nebulous, but there are disorders affecting fine motor control and I would have to concede that they would limit a person’s ability to play fast.

However, most guitar players who complain about a lack of speed have not been diagnosed with any such disorder by a medical professional. Instead, they have built the narrative in their mind that there is something “wrong” with them, despite demonstrating more than sufficient movement speeds in tests.

Further, the existence of people with unusual difficulties is not evidence that players such as Shawn Lane are unusually advantaged or posess “freakish” nervous systems.

In my experience working with people, that would be more than unusually slow. Are you sure you mean quarter notes? One note per beat at 180bpm is 3 notes per second. I’ve worked with a lot of people since starting teaching and I have never met anybody with a movement speed that low. Do you mean 16ths notes (i.e. four notes per beat)?

Please, try this spacebar tapping test. Don’t think guitar, don’t think music, don’t think about keeping even time. Just mash the spacebar as fast as you can for 10 seconds. Try the test 4-5 times and share your results.

If you have the necessary movement speed, the issue is your ability to apply it to the guitar. Maybe you can’t do it, but until you learn how to do something, the possibility that you just haven’t learned how to do it yet still exists.

Your decision that you can’t do it is what eliminates any chance of you realizing that possibility.

It’s not my intention to insult you, but I have worked with players who’ve struggled for similar amounts of time and helped them to achieve results.

I’ve said this to you before, but it really seems to me that you’re catastrophizing. You demonstrated far more than sufficient movement speeds in tests, and you had some clear issues with fretting posture and mechanics.

Correct me if I’m misremembering, but you’ve been playing about four years now?

I don’t think there is no talent involved, or that it is only a matter of practice. I think it’s far more likely that the difficulties people experience are often due to ineffective learning strageties and inefficient practice patterns. It’s not usually an issue of not practicing hard enough, if anything “practicing hard” is an issue in itself.

I’d like to make it very clear to you that I share a profound understanding of this experience.

I think this gets to the core of the issue. We teach technique as a collection of mechanics and idealized movement patterns. We frame practice as the process of learning to perform those movements and repeating them.

Many people think they have issues with guitar technique, but really, they have issues with their “sense of guitar”. We don’t talk about the process of developing sensitivity or building intuition, though these are huge aspects of skill aquisition.

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Maybe you could try doing more arpeggio doodling every day to see if you can strengthen that move in other phrases. This way at least you can work on doing it once really fast. You have to trick your body to learn how to cook the motion some how, this would be the way I would have to attempt it. Since I can do those two arpeggio phrases very fast. the back to back thing you could try working on like the pre solo build up yjm stuff like in the tracks rising force or big foot.

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It took me 10 years to find an approach that worked, once I did, I had the motion completely down in 6 months. I can’t pick at Shawn Lane speeds but it’s just because I haven’t learnt a motion capable of those speeds i.e. I’m doing it wrong, not that I am incapable - I think this is true for most people :slight_smile:

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So that’s why you were asking about how to do a dart thrower motion :wink:

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Sorry, I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth. You’re correct, that’s not what you said. My comment was aimed at the trope in general which I’ve seen in other contexts but not here so much.

On the contrary, I’m actually much more at peace now after accepting that, at least for the moment, I seem to be stuck at a roadblock, and that it’s possible that the causes aren’t really in my control. I’d certainly like to discover that they are in my control, but if I never manage to do that, I can’t keep beating myself up. I was in a much worse place back a year or so ago (as is probably obvious from my posts) and of course you’re correct that four years isn’t long enough to draw any long-term conclusions. I’m not really trying to do that.

Yeah, this is something I’ve thought about a lot recently. Honestly, I think having a practice coach might be more valuable to me than a traditional guitar teacher at this point! For the moment, I’ve really backed off of a lot of the “practicing hard” stuff though (repetitive patterns, etc.) because I really wasn’t getting anywhere with it. I’ve been playing a lot more classical guitar recently. I worked on your rudiments for a few months (trying to focus on posture and fretting mechanics) but to be honest I could never get the “level 1” fretting pattern, or even the simplified “level 0” version. I think I need to start at maybe level -7 or -8 :wink:

One thing I have been doing a bit of lately is simple chromatic permutations with the left hand only. 1-3-2-4, 1-3-4-2, etc. up each string, shift over a fret, and down each string, and repeat up the fretboard, with a focus on posture and timing consistency, starting at slow speeds (60bpm) and working up bit by bit. I know this isn’t really the approach you recommend but it’s the most “level -8” thing I could think of.

I promise - anything with fingers 3 and 4 following each other is a colossal waste of time. You won’t find any of the accepted ‘major’ players doing it except in specific situations - and even then only when there is literally no other way.

In 35+ years of playing, I’ve done more chromatic exercises I could possibly count… If there is one thing I can suggest to never do again - it’s that…it doesn’t do anything except waste practice time.

The funny thing is I’ve got a Bluegrass lick I’ve been playing since the late 80s. It has a 4321 chromatic passage in it that I could never get fast enough…and I worked at getting it rapid.

As odd as it sounds, not long after correcting my right hand and taking chromatic exercises out…I’m blasting through pretty much as fast as I’ll ever want to play it.

Perhaps they are a waste of time. I’m open to alternative suggestions. But you have to understand, I can’t even consistently tap a pattern on a table. My goal here is not to learn something useful or musical, that’s level 1. I’m targeting level -8, my goal is to learn to even move my fingers with any semblance of consistent control at all. Chromatics just seemed like one of the simplest possible starting points.

i would say if you are to do those patterns that you at least try to find other tetrachord sounds beyond chromatic so you can make sure to find alternative ways to justify using those abnormal patterns beyond chromatic. even if that means you might have to attempt them higher up on the fretboard if you are using four fingers per string to minimize the stretch.

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Lots of really interesting posts here. Okay, so for one thing - I’d like to say this - it IS possible to learn how to play quickly and learn how to do some moves that seem impossible. I know this to be true because I am dense, dense, dense at times until I have that ah-ha moment. And at times I need to be dragged kicking and screaming, then assured and reassured that yes, it’s right!

Just curious for the original poster - have you tried to see how quick you can get even number of notes things? Those should be fast for anybody - even stupid dorks from Northern Canada who swipe their single string stuff and get trapped on their escape strokes… (That’s me I am talking about! :grinning:) And I can play pretty quick/not too horribly so I’d think y’all are several steps ahead of where I am at picking wise? I spent quite a bit of time playing percussive muted rhythms with the RH only and it exploded through my playing. Odd NPS requires either DBX or a legato or hybrid picked escape hatch or sweepie sweepie moves… There’s swiping also, but it’s too soon still for me to talk about swiping hahaha

Also I spent a few months being coached by Tom Gilroy @Tom_Gilroy and I am STILL sorting through that stuff! We solved a major issue/obstacle and I highly recommend spending time with Tom he is extremely knowledgeable and very, very effective at communicating…

Of course, Tommo, and Troy here are extremely perceptive as well and although I certainly didn’t end up with things going the way I sort of hoped they would unfold with my technique, unfold it did and I am extremely grateful for the starting point I am at in regards to what I wanted to add to my music in regards to my plectrum technique… (Thanks guys!)

I’ve been playing and practicing like a m’effer for 45 years and there I was last Christmas struggling with life basically starting over with my picking. It worked, I stuck with it and it’s getting better. Now this week, I have the ability to do another thing which opens up all kinds of other options, but again I am at the beginning and will have to work at it and pay close attention to how I optimize this…

All I can say is try your best, post some clips and then try again. Try some stuff, step back, re-evaluate and then try again. A happy accident will occur; might not look like anyone you ever heard of but hey… Who gives a @$#@$ :grinning:

PS - Shawn Lane really loved music and I think his output is about much more than just sheer speed. Love that guy’s music! Powers of Ten for the win!


SHAWN003
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Wow man thats so cool, thats from him to you? :grin: Got a little story on it?

One of my favorite shred pieces is by Shawn, Gray pianos flying of course.

Theres also that song one more night. This deserves a proper produced rendition.

Gray pianos is like one of the happiest shred songs I’ve heard.

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Oh yeah - I had heard he didn’t have a guitar, so I sent him the best one I had at the time! His sister sent me a really cool live video of him jamming in a small club with some guys - kind of an improv open mic thing. Also sent me these photos which I thought were real cool!

I have owned a few 7 strings over the years and y’know - I just can’t connect with them! Not my thing! I always WANTED them but once I got one it was… underwhelming… lol

So I thought a bit about the “speed first” thing and it makes sense; get the gross motion down as fast as it can go and then start optimizing. That probably means that there would be two tempos - a super fast gross tempo and then a much slower detail tempo. From my interactions and discussions, we have to be careful with that “detail” tempo lest it be a tempo that is too slow, and kind of that “demonstration” level tempo that is not engaging the same muscle chains. Might look the same sort of, but it’s not the same. The ratio between gross/fine playing is what you’re working on decreasing which is why starting fast, and working down is a much better practice strategy - you don’t get caught in the potentially decades-long loop of playing at a substantially slower “demonstration” speed.

Not sure that makes sense, hopefully I am not too far off-base!

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If he was already playing piano lines fast in both hands, I don’t think for some this will be quite the same circumstances. He clearly has a vision for the line in his mind for the left on guitar so forcing the right to book it might not be as complex as a task compared to someone that has neither hand developed for blinding speed with no phrases in mind, audiation skill probably highly developed as well.

I do agree there is this two speed phases that occur in my playing as well. I feel like the rest stroke bridged the gap some and got me further into the speed zone, but it still isn’t the pedal to the metal zone of speed.

There more I think about the rest stroke as well the more I see it as a very strategic way of cross string phrasing, if we are talking speed mainly musically ascending lines, since musically descending switching strings always on dowstrokes will be a speed limiter. And I also don’t see it being that great for single string phrases or repeated single string fragments. It does help develop a consistent motion of picking which I was able to benefit from to develop a bit more coordination on cross string musically ascended phrasing.

Well, he most certainly didn’t just get “born with the ability to play” he had to practice his ass off. As far as pitch recognition and aural skills, that comes with time and a lot of practice/exposure. Lots and lots of songs. So again, lots of practice and play. Variety. His early clips with Black Oak Arkansas in, like 1979 are pretty primitive but show the early stages of the great player he would become.

Maybe go and learn to play 100 songs to the point of where you can play right along with the recording and you will start to get it. I mean how many people out there are disgustingly good at their jobs, and HATE their jobs? Why are they so good at it if they hate it? Oh that’s because they have to do it like 8-10 hours a day for years…decades…

For career musicians learning stuff quickly and efficiently by whatever means necessary is the difference between eating and not eating…

Gotta do your chores. Bitching about the chores doesn’t get the chores done… :grinning:

haha i can agree with ya there learning new songs is fun, and sometimes not. but at the end of the day it will always benefit the musical prowess. keep on grinding, fight through the frustation in whatever way you gotta.

for me its the memory thing, boy it sure does tax my brain at times. but i believe this is my lack of theory knowledge to help me compartmentalize things into simpler building blocks. that and a super weak audiation skill that only begins to show itself during transcribing. then i can start to hear the other pieces beyond the focal point of aural recall.

Yeah, sorry man but this rest stroke thing as you described it was useless for me. I know you really believe in it, and that’s great if it works for you but for me it was completely useless as an efficient and fast string crossing tool. Maybe one day it will make sense to me but where I am at right now the tools and strategies available which are particular to me don’t really jive with doing that. No advantage whatsoever to me, so I won’t invest in it. Again - you love it - that’s great! Rock on!

As far as memory goes; well that comes from playing a lot of things also. I mean after you have played through the 100th tune in the real book you start to see, hear and know some similarities. Also, if you are talking and thinking in tab (numbers and geometry) that’s counter-productive as well since there are a finite amount of notes and they occur in music in very pattern oriented ways. Chunks, anyone?

For instance, learn an Yngwie song and although the first one is tough and a lot of work I bet the second one isn’t so bad. Then the 3rd. Then the 4th. Then after you have done the first grind and learned his first album every note all the way through I can guarantee that everything else that you try to learn from him you can bet will be learned very, very quickly. AC/DC, Django, Eric Johnson, Metallica, Coltrane… etc etc you will get really used to their ummm musical “habits” and since you’ve assimilated them, they are easier to hear, write down, and play.

It’s okay to play the rhythm guitar parts to amazing shred music while you are figuring that stuff out - it’s all part of the puzzle anyways and it WILL help you hear what’s going on especially since you don’t have to slow anything down and practice it dissected. Another way of starting with speed if that makes sense…

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yea the thing i realized after doing it is that i kinda erased my rdt motion into turn key. i can still see it sometimes in very few yngwie phrases, but even these i have now reverted to the more turn key motion versus the back and forth. but omg it was brutal saying wait these guys are resting after they do a downstroke? LOL thats why i think it erased the dart thrower motion is because i was like ok well, rest, turn pick out, now turn back in, ok, rest, the first phrase of learning this is beyond frustrating equally probably for the next 10 -15 but about 2 months in you start to flow way faster. it helps develop an articulation for the picking of cross string lines very quickly of phrases that i dont know at all. but in the beginning it was brutal!

and i mean baby steps there is no tempo at all i did those motions with probably like 10-20 bpm maybe less if i dont know the phrase? LOL

it goes much much faster now since i can see the picking articulation has patterns that my hands now are accustomed to, but in the beginning it was like i was picking up the guitar for the first time. the turn motion felt new, but it felt like a proper motion.

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How fast can you get this? And I am thinking that maybe starting ridiculously fast and working “down” to a base tempo would be effective at squeezing the bpms. Gross to fine, and then over time you see that fine level up, but all the while you are getting acclimated to “fast”. It seems to me that otherwise one might get sort of stuck in that “stringhopping” tempo zone?

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i meant 10-15 phrases that i was learning it was still quite slow.

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but like you said there is this gap between fast and slow if you watch joscho you can see it in his playing i would wager anyways. you will see a more finesse buttery tremolo, compared to a forced rigid hard tremolo that just doesn’t sound as fluid. so the speed thing gets to a point that no matter what it will require tension well if you need to go above and beyond. this is why on acoustic its probably much easier to spot this variance compared to an electric guitar where compression effects will hide it better.

and even these die hards i spotted them swiping like mozes rosenberg with his cover of badinerie (pedal point phrase the dreaded 1 note per string occurance). so they cheat also basically a bigger down stroke to rest move to get that swipe through 1 string to double back to the upstroke. it just makes sense with the turn motion that they might swipe because its kinda like a rhythm guitar maneuver, just keep that same turn motion engine motor going so I get why they swipe. but i mean it just gets to a point you gotta find that way to free the hand up. haha! and you better believe it works, very difficult to perform but when the hands learn it after a few days i saw a quick increase of almost 15% speed jump from 70 to 85% speed.

its like with the tapping or turning of the hand/wrist. you can do it basically tension free in the air, but you can also tense your forearm and elbow to force it to GOOO. :stuck_out_tongue: like rusty cooley heh! i was never a blanka or chun li player in street fighter. :stuck_out_tongue:

for those here that think extreme guitar shred is tough go do the math on how fast the inputs are that those street fighter players have to do with those insane combos. not only the speed, but they have to have perfect accuracy in time. it blew my mind, and i said f’ that those pro’s are Godlike execution in the heat of battle.

I agree so much here, but the problem is from guitar birth we are shown all these patterns. And even if you aren’t it is still hard to not spot them when technique wise it unfortunately is going to shine through more prominently probably for those who are more mechanically inclined as opposed to someone who is more creative minded. I try now to learn phrases by ear, but still those pesky picking articulation patterns map my mental mind. HAHA But I see the need for it in the infancy of ones guitar journey, but once one knows the rules of whichever picking technique they start to develop a grasp over you have to abandon all tablature to switch over to sounding it out with ones instrument in a mimic phase, and not a note at a time either. has to be more being able to identify the phrase against the soundscape (chord/bass note drone). then trying to develop that mental aural memory and recall of the entire phrase. but even this i don’t believe is going to develop ones ability to speak melody (although i do know there is a kind of octave range at play here, one and a half, so there is at least some boundaries so not to overcomplicate things), no matter how hard one tries. there is a creative aspect that is at play, and this is where i struggle to understand how to coax this out beyond the drone note listening and speaking notes 1 at a time wherever i feel they should go. i hide my feelings i guess! lmao!

I meant 16th notes at 180, this is pretty much my top speed, if I try to go any faster I lose control or I tense up and start getting pain. I am happy with that speed mostly, I would like to be able to play certain things though, and I work through stuff and it takes many many hours of work to get to new levels. I think some people have natural ability to just pick up on stuff quickly and others have to work on it, that is more what I mean. Inate talent for something. My inate talent is I can hear well and pick up songs quickly, not necessarily the solos.

I have frontal lobe damage from an injury, so yes I have been diagnosed with certain neurological limitations. I’ve also had severe ulnar nerve problems to the point I couldn’t even lift my left arm or use the bathroom or clean myself, so I have to be exceptionally careful. I am acutely aware of my limitations and what works and what doesn’t when I find something that works. I used to play semi-professionally before I stopped playing for a decade due to other life issues.

That said you and others have helped me improve my overall technique, through relaxation studies, using bursts, and using a metronome to clean things up. I have found that memory issues have a lot to do with limits, I’ve mentioned this before as well. There is more to playing music than picking technique, and to me it’s not as important as people put on it. So I’ve worked on my legato instead, which I CAN do at very fast speeds.

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