Bingo. And more generally, I think that all musical instrument instruction is getter better and more evidence-based over time. So I think we’ll see even more convergence toward similar ideas as the ideas that work start to crowd out the ideas that don’t. Nobody is going to be willing to sit there doing something if they suspect there’s a better way. See, the internet isn’t all cat videos and arguments. It can do some good too!
“Does universal jumping into box technique exist? I will analyze the stamina, meowing, and speed of several great cats posted all over the Internet…”
5 Likes
For context, there was a section in Anton’s latest video where he spends a few minutes talking about the benefits of antagonistic muscles.
I queued it to where it starts, it goes on for about 7 minutes. I came away from that part thinking it was pretty integral to his system. He mentioned improper technique and tension could get in the way of allowing this natural function of opposing muscle groups to help each other out. So there is always a muscle that’s recuperating but gets sort of an elastic aid from the other muscle. He even does a little demo showing his wrist bouncing, naturally. Then applies just a little tension, and the bounce stops. I took the point as, if we’re inhibiting this natural process, our stamina will suffer. Because rather than letting the natural elastic action happen, we have to apply more effort by some other means (brute force). Which will work! But just for not as long, then we burn out.
This is all interesting to me because I had classical training at Peabody and they were VERY fussy about positions , angles and range of motion. My teacher specifically mentioned finding the middle of the range of motion for nearly every joint we’d move. Anton’s approach feels very “classical” to me. Just from the free videos I’ve seen, that’s my impression. I fully realize we’re all different anatomically, but isn’t finding a position and a motion like this pretty important? Or are you just of the opinion that if we get that “fast and smooth” movement that doesn’t burn out, that we’ve taken care of this and the antagonistic muscle groups are indeed working as designed. In other words, nothing to worry about or try to do, because a fast smooth motion is fast and smooth because the system is working as designed.
Swamped and no time to wade into the technical of the Anton stuff. I will just say that anyone who talks about relaxed body posture and the “right” way to do something is going to sound familiar to you because of your classical background. I can comment on that aspect somewhat.
Whether classical teaching is technically correct, who knows. I think it’s more likely that it is correct sometimes, but suffers from severe selection bias since the only people allowed in are people that can pass an audition proving they can already do it. I have personally interviewed Juilliard instructors like Noa Kageyama and we specifically discussed this. Every person walking in the door there can already play the highest level of difficult pieces. Nobody is there to actually learn how to play their instrument from scratch. So we don’t know what methods would actually work on an unfiltered population. Two, we talked about how he had to “trial and error” his way into a certain pizzicato technique that just wasn’t being taught for a Paganini piece.
Ergo, there doesn’t really seem to be a huge amount of data gathering going on in those circles. Conservatories are not research labs. I’m not saying they’re wrong, I’m just saying, we can’t assume they are right just because they are famous, care about the right things (comfort, efficiency), and have said certain things.
Again, cannot comment on the Anton stuff. But as for our own teaching, regardless of what technique you want to do, you need a way to test that it is actually working. You can have the absolute most correct, most detailed instruction in the world, but you still have to actually do it, and then you have to recognize when it is correct in order to repeat it. I know of no way of doing this aside from testing for speed and smoothness first. If there is another way, I am all ears. And picks!
2 Likes
Great answer! Thanks! I mainly wanted to flag it since it was a key part of that video, not just some offshoot conversation this thread spawned 
Your answer makes sense though. Correct instruction does not translate to the student being able to do it. Even the classical instruction I had…it was not magic. I could not do what that man told me to do in the beginning lol! I had to work pretty hard to get things to where he said I’d gotten it, then we could move on.
Also, while we’re on this subject of gathering information, I’m not sure how many people know this. I have mentioned it on occasion but I’ll mention this again because it seems germane to the subject of what kind of expertise we trust and why.
These ideas about starting with speed and randomness are not opinions or things I plucked out of thin air. They were the result of reading actual published motor learning research in combination with lots of testing and trial and error with our own students.
On top of that, I actually presented these ideas to no less than two motor learning research labs as a part of our interviews — Pietro’s group at Columbia University and again at the University of North Carolina Raleigh-Durham during the speed research. I also gave this presentation publicly at the Larvik Guitar Festival in Norway and took questions afterward. Robben Ford sat through it! Hilariously.
The presentations included slides with graphs of how I think the process works, and video clips of players interviews with actual closeup footage. There was a healthy amount of audience participation as the various rooms full of PhDs tried to guess where I was going with all this. It was fun and a bit surreal.
Not only did they not laugh me out of the room, but in discussions afterward they mentioned research papers which support the stuff that I was talking about, some of which were the papers I had actually read as part of coming up with these ideas in the first place. The Maurice Smith paper in particular, which I’ve talked about now in various Primer lessons, is a big one. Check the beginner tremolo case study if you’re interested in learning more.
So I get it that we’re all dummies out here in UserLand, flying by the seat of our pants to try and come up with stuff that’s going to work to help people learn better. But I would like to think that more so than anyone else in this field of, let’s call it, popular guitar instruction, I have gone farther in terms of interfacing with actual science and scientists, vetting our work by presenting to experts, and verifying through observing, testing, and refining that we’re actually on to something. I built a high speed camera mount too because the data is where it all begins.
I mention this all because I think we need to get away from this idea that you have to be the best guitar player to be right about guitar. You don’t. You just have to be right about stuff to be right about stuff. There is a process for determining this that does not depend on picking technique or celebrity.
10 Likes
Hi I just wanted to say that Anton plays the second part of the extreme song intro Mutha wrong. it’s string skipped arpeggios not cross picked like he shows in his demonstration, so has a totally different sound.
Also I’m really not happy with how economy picking and sweep picking is referred to as lacking in quality. Jason Becker, Shawn Lane, Yngwie all lacking in quality…
2 Likes
(post deleted by author)
ummm What the hell?
What did I walk into here? What the heck did I just read? On what planet is Andy Wood messy…? Molly Tuttle slow…?
Oh god, that means I am… not fit to own a guitar. Oh snap… 
All good, Jeff Beck is the best rock player on the planet and doesn’t shred at all.
Anyways, life is way too short. Let’s get back to studying the intricacies of the instrument and having fun playing cool notes, celebrating people who play well and helping out those of us who are terrible but trying their best.
(And no doubt, Anton is utterly amazing)
4 Likes
If you think there’s nothing technical to learn from Jeff Beck you know next to nothing about guitar or music, now that’s a fact.
5 Likes
You have just destroyed any shred of credibility you had. You don’t even know what you don’t know.
There are reasons that Jeff Beck’s technique is/was revered by the likes of Guthrie Govan, Greg Howe, Shawn Lane, Eric Johnson, etc.
There’s an entire technical dimension where he’s so far ahead of everybody else that we’re all (yes, even Anton) totally inadequate by comparison. You are ignorant of it. You don’t even realise that dimension exists.
Stop. You’re embarrassing yourself.
6 Likes
Surprise, we got more flags on this thread! All flagged posts have been hidden — until Troy and I have a chance to discuss them. So please don’t get offended yet if your post got hidden — please feel free to reach out to me to discuss it
In related news, Sergey’s account has been suspended until at least end of the month, because there’s a limit to our patience. Differently from some of the other hidden posts, with his latest posts there’s no doubt that they don’t belong here.
4 Likes
Thanks, Tommo. I think everyone except Sergey is in agreement that there’s only massive respect here for both Anton and Troy and we all wish only for there to be a bond of friendship between the two schools. Hopefully it can be left at that. Massive love to Mr. Oparin from we CtC students to him and his school!
Peace
3 Likes
Totally endorse this, if there was any doubt 
I would also add (as you hinted at earlier) that it’s not fair to judge a teacher by the behaviour of their students, let’s keep that in mind!
3 Likes
Uhmmmm have you seen the first Karate Kid movie? Hahaha
2 Likes
Whew! Quite a thread, and an interesting read to be sure. Apologies if anyone’s offended, not my intent.
Just to be clear, I think Anton is fantastic, I love his technique and execution, the raw ability he has is amazing. If he can teach it, that’s awesome too!
2 Likes
From about 3:26 till 3:35! How is this even possible at such a speed….???
Is there anybody else who can do this with picking besides Anton? I have to find that person yet…. Just crazy!
1 Like
ooh he wants to be careful there, someone might clip out a few seconds of that and stamp DESYNCED over it
edit: if you were inclined to do that sort of thing I mean, I’ve already expressed that it isn’t my favoured method of engaging with music
1 Like
What do you mean exactly?