So what clockface movement was McLaughlin using on his Upward Pick Slanting?

[JUAN_Z]

I spent a couple of months trying to give a try to upward pickslanting since it was sort of the opposite to what I considered as “correct” picking technique before discovering Cracking the Code.
So I got caught up in the Pick Slanting Primer, specially the upward part, cause you Know Al Di Meola seemed to use it and John Mc Laughing, so it was really a revelation for me!

Now after watching the crosspickin broadcasts I am trying to understand, using the clockface analogy what are the movements these two great players use when they are upward slant picking, if that makes sense

[Acecrusher]

Just hypothetically, suppose both DiMeola and McLaughlin used the same clock face movement on upward pick slanting. That would still not necessarily mean they’re using the same muscles to move the pick. So considering that, I’m wondering what the value would be in knowing their clock face movements unless you also know what muscles and joints they employ in making those movements.

You can’t replicate what they do just by deciding for example you need an 8 to 2 movement without also knowing if they use forearm rotation, if they use finger movement, is it forearm rotation and finger movement and if so how much of each, etc.

[Andjoy]

In my opinion Al di Meola and John Mc Laughlin have different hand placing and picking motion.
mc Laughlin much more upward, Al is more flat.

[Troy]

Just hypothetically, suppose both DiMeola and McLaughlin used the same clock face movement on upward pick slanting. That would still not necessarily mean they’re using the same muscles to move the pick.

It would. That is the whole point of the clock face analogy - to take arm position out of the equation, and understand exactly which way the wrist is moving in a standardized position. If it is moving the same way, then the same muscles are being used.

Now after watching the crosspickin broadcasts I am trying to understand, using the clockface analogy what are the movements these two great players use when they are upward slant picking, if that makes sense

They are both approximately 2 o’clock downstroke escape players, similar to Andy Wood. There may be slight differences based on their arm position on the guitar, which can make the wrist motion appear different. But again, the idea of the clock face is that you are removing arm from the equation and observing the wrist from a standardized position. When you do this, Al, John, and Andy all make a picking motion that blends a little bit of wrist flexion/extension with deviation, while remaining close to the deviation axis.

[Andjoy]

Al is more flat even a bit downward at rimes and John very upward.
Al’s arm position is much lower on the body John comes more from above.
The motion maybe similair, but due to the arm/hand positioning It feels different to me when trying both.

[JUAN_Z]

all make a picking motion that blends a little bit of wrist flexion/extension with deviation, while remaining close to the deviation axis.

that’s is a big part of my question here, apart from trying to fit exclusively Upward Pickslanting (aka Escaped Downstrokes) into the clockface analogy, my doubt is that when you are using either DWPS or UWPS, the movement is not linear exclusively (pure deviation back and forth) but a blend like a 902 or 1003. Even in the licks from Pickslant Primer the Malmsteen ones or the lines of John Mc Laughing.
And that’s a by product of the setup either very supinated like Troy on the Downward pickslanting lessons or Marty Friedman, or way less supinated like McLaughlin, in those cases the goal was not a crosspicking curved motion buy YET is a compound movement and not pure deviation?

[JUAN_Z]

Yes indeed they have very different arm positions plus Al uses TWPS and Johns vocabulary and lines adapt to his ability to change strings after downstrokes ( I mean in the blazing fast lines). But talking about purely UWPS they both seem to use pure deviation and the arm setup handles the compound movement to achieve the escaped stroke

Thank you nice video. I am happy there’s so many videos of them playing together a true heritage for guitar playing.

[JUAN_Z]

@Acecrusher

You can’t replicate what they do just by deciding for example you need an 8 to 2 movement without also knowing if they use forearm rotation, if they use finger movement, is it forearm rotation and finger movement

I hope I can man. I would copy their moves until I can shred

Jokes aside I think it can make all the difference if we are able to discover and apply the movements these virtuosos do and go beyond the old teachings about picking and practicing indiscriminately, which haven’t worked for some of us over the years.

[JUAN_Z]

That is the whole point of the clock face analogy - to take arm position out of the equation, and understand exactly which way the wrist is moving in a standardized position

I think that clockface analogy is pretty useful since before it we were complicating a lot with flexion/extension deviation etc.

[Troy]

But talking about purely UWPS they both seem to use pure deviation

Almost! It’s not pure deviation - if they did that, they wouldn’t escape. Instead, they use the 2 o’clock motion, which is a combination of wrist flexion/extension and deviation working together. That’s the “compound” aspect. However, so many basic, everyday hand motions work this way, like the “dart thrower” motion we look at in the lesson, that it’s almost overkill to think of this as compound. I just think of this as one of the directions the wrist can move.

So the arm setup doesn’t really cause the motion — you do that yourself, by moving your wrist along a diagonal. And importantly, the arm setup doesn’t change the motion either. You can stick your arm straight up in the air over your head and perform the same wrist motion.

[JUAN_Z]

, so many basic, everyday hand motions work this way, like the “dart thrower” motion we look at in the lesson

I love how you gathered scientific material to support your research /thesis. One of the reasons I like so much troygrady.com. Thanks I’ll keep trying

[Troy]

Thanks I’ll keep trying

Trying as in, are you saying you’re having trouble performing a downstroke escape motion? These are actually pretty simple, and we’ve covered this in two places so far. You can check out the intro to picking motion talk, which is here:

Introduction to Picking Motion

And you can also check out the lesson on crosspicking with the wrist, which is here:

Crosspicking With The Wrist

Even though this is a lesson on bluegrass roll playing, we cover the 2 o’clock downstroke escape in great detail and that’s the motion both of these guys use, and honestly, probably most wrist players use when playing downstroke-escape (aka “upward pickslanting”) lines.

[JUAN_Z]

yes actually the Paul Gilbert descending sixes are the type of exercises I have tried but when I want to speed it up it begins to fall apart, so I am trying to focus on that upward pickslanting (escaped downstrokes)

I did check those videos you put the links for, the Crosspicking with the wrist and wirst+ forearm. But I will review them thanks.

The question or doubt I had was if I needed to use a compound movement like the 2 o’clock one or if you you just needed to have a downward pickslant setup and by using pure deviation you will be able to clear those down Strokes string changes.

But thank you because you also answered that question in this post as you said that the hand basically always moves with a compound or diagonal path and a pure deviation motion would actually be pretty rare.

So I will keep practicing trying this concepts. Anyways I will try to film my playing in the near future. Thanks a lot Troy.

[Troy]

The question or doubt I had was if I needed to use a compound movement like the 2 o’clock one or if you you just needed to have a downward pickslant setup and by using pure deviation you will be able to clear those down Strokes string changes.

Sorry for the confusion! Both of these methods work.

But thank you because you also answered that question in this post as you said that the hand basically always moves with a compound or diagonal path and a pure deviation motion would actually be pretty rare.

I don’t know about “rare”. I was really just commenting on the players you asked about, and others that I can think of like Andy Wood. They use the 2 o’clock motion, not the pure deviation motion. Molly Tuttle and Oz Noy use the pronated arm setup, so if they play these kinds of lines, it would be pure deviation But Molly mostly uses the double escape motion, and Oz, well, Oz uses everything!

If you do this with the arm resting on the strings, it will probably be 2 o’clock. If you do it with only the thumb on the strings (like Molly), and the pinky not touching, that is probably deviation. You may not be able to feel much difference besides the arm position.

I really wouldn’t worry too much about this. If you can do any wrist motion that clears the strings on downstrokes, you are good.

[JudasPriester]

And Gilbert? What does he use? Doesn’t he occasionally rotate his arm to change the escape path? But has he a Default like mostly Escape downstrokes or upstrokes? I am just interested

Edit: He often looks like doing a 2-o-clock-movement, but I am not sure

[Acecrusher]

It would. That is the whole point of the clock face analogy - to take arm position out of the equation, and understand exactly which way the wrist is moving in a standardized position. If it is moving the same way, then the same muscles are being used.

That only applies to guitarists using only the wrist to pick. I wrote: “Just hypothetically suppose both DiMeola and McLaughlin used the same clock face movement on upward pick slanting. That would still not necessarily mean they’re using the same muscles to move the pick.” The point I was making is that you need to take into account everything a guitarist is using to get the pick to move in that direction - not just wrist. Suppose one player uses some thumb - finger motion to help move the pick in a particular clock face motion and the other only uses wrist to achieve that same clock face motion. In that situation, they’re not both utilizing the same muscles to move the pick in the same clock face motion are they?

[Troy]

You can’t replicate what they do just by deciding for example you need an 8 to 2 movement without also knowing if they use forearm rotation, if they use finger movement, is it forearm rotation and finger movement and if so how much of each, etc.

You’re right! Sorry, I missed this the first time. I will attend the Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Don’t Read Good.

In the case of the two guys specifically, though, they are indeed wrist players, and there’s a lot of footage out there of both of them demonstrating this. So we don’t have to worry about whether forearm or fingers are involved as part of their alternate picking motion.

So considering that, I’m wondering what the value would be in knowing their clock face movements unless you also know what muscles and joints they employ in making those movements.

The reason it’s useful is that you now have a really clear explanation for an important part of any motion you look at that involves wrist motion. Being able to say, ok, I see the wrist is moving and it’s going like this, that makes it much easier to figure out which other motions, if any, might be happening or not happening at the same time.

[Acecrusher]

In the case of the two guys specifically, though, they are indeed wrist players, and there’s a lot of footage out there of both of them demonstrating this. So we don’t have to worry about whether forearm or fingers are involved as part of their alternate picking motion.

So, are you saying that as far as you know, the mechanics for alternate picking technique that Al DiMeola and John McLaughlin are the same? I honestly didn’t know that but you would know about that better than I. At any rate it seems they have picking mechanics that re at least very similar and all based from the wrist. Maybe one has an 8 to 2 clock face movement and the other a 7:30 to 1:30 or something extremely similar like that. BTW, does either ever use cross picking?

The reason it’s useful is that you now have a really clear explanation for an important part of any motion you look at that involves wrist motion. Being able to say, ok, I see the wrist is moving and it’s going like this , that makes it much easier to figure out which other motions, if any, might be happening or not happening at the same time.

OK, now I see the value in knowing the clock face motions they use. Thank you.

[JUAN_Z]

Al DiMeola

Al has stated on his instructional videos and many interviews that he uses the wrist to alternate pick. Even explaining that you should never lock the wrist (meaning not using the elbow to move back and forth the pick) and he says when he gave lessons always advised his students not to lock the wrist.

I am just commenting that anecdote since I have watched many instructional videos over the years before CtC. I know most of us here have done the same.

[JUAN_Z]

don’t know about “rare”

Yes you are right I paraphrased it wrong. And yes you were taking about only the players I mentioned.

I really wouldn’t worry too much about this. If you can do any wrist motion that clears the strings on downstrokes, you are good.

I certainly have noticed an improvement on my ability to play a bit faster after trying DWPS and UWPS, being the upward version the least common to me (or more akward) but definitely I also feel WAY more relaxed when picking. I think I was always string hoping on the string changes.

I mean before attempting crosspicking I tried first Doward Pickslanting and it helped quite much. And then I went for the Downward version.

Speed might have not come yet but feeling of a more natural more relaxed movement is something I noticed almost righ away.