Solfege is really helping me but i have questions

so i have been toying around on those perfect pitch game websites. it all started out just really pissed off at these perfect pitch boasters. so i figured i would give it a shot. heh. i mean i use to be a gamer, and a gym rat, how hard can it be, i can do the grind. so here is how it goes.

i start out with the c natural scale.

solfege engaged. ok not to hard. but you start thinking what about those other dreaded tones. ok lets add them in. whoa cowboy big mistake. ok back track, lets just split the keys apart. much easier. wait what am i hearing? old mcdonald had a farm? ok wierd. low and behold its just f# major pentatonic clear as a bell. ok lets add the natural notes in since i am in f# major lets add b and f in. ok not to bad this is much clearer than c natural i will stick with it F# is my do, DOH! haha i dont care. i press on.

I always start F# major pentatonic but I start doing permutations with the natural notes all the way until all 12 tones are swirling around. So far i went from 20% will all tones to around 60-70%. the tritone seems to come in more clear the G, D, and E also. A is still hiding away from my grasp and trips me up. but basically these other notes exists, and remain hidden, almost dissonant if you will. but i mean they really arent, it’s just notes. but in my brain this is how i am trying to compute it as a whole for now. but i am wondering if this changes, only time will tell. when i noticed a huge uptick in correct answer percentage jump from 20-60 can sometimes go up to 80%, from when i began with all 12 tones is when i knew i was at least getting somewhere.

Ok now to the questions.

My sense of place sometimes can remain in center. If I am away for to long it like gets lost. Most times I am either on or a semitone off. This is just piano though I have been trying to not listen to outside sounds, even music, but if it happens so be it. But now here is the kicker am I just learning the major scale as a complete whole? my do, re, mi, fa, so, la, ti is the major scale sound with the rest of the tones thrown in. What if I changed do re mi fa so la ti to another scale? Is this what I should do? Do I leave Do as F#? lol so many questions. here is the solfege ear training regime i do, dont do this unless you want old mcdonald forever stuck in your brain and f# as do, rofl!

I basically know the black keys in my sleep thats easy for me but if it isnt for you well i would suggest work with the pentatonic first most likely will be c major pentatonic.

F# do
G# re
A# mi
B fa
C#so
D#la
F ti haha as joe pointed out this is E# thought this looked funny. just using the game to notate things.

so here i know these quite well, no hiccups. la will try to trip me up with re but this is going away the more i do it. and i always catch it, but it can hinder my speed.

so now to my method that i do

these notes are what i add into each training phase, they go into my f# major solfege. i know if i master these i could probably transcribe atonal monophonic stuff rofl! another thing to add in the beginning when i started it always felt like the natural tones and the black tones where modulating around in keys. it was only when i started to really cement do re mi onto F# major where i really started to progress in correct answers with all 12 tones active. oh and another method i was doing was leaving the lower tetrachord untouched, and adding all the tones in the upper tetrachord so 10 out of 12 tones. but that permutation should be in this group so i dont think about it and just stick to this list. furthermore to really start to know where the other tones reside outside the syllables if you sing up or down a semitone, and listen to your voice it helps to cement them for learning. cheating if you will, but its just to help with comprehending the location amongst the solfege syllables. with practice this becomes second nature, and you wont have to sing. oh and you can also practice internally singing inside your mind, even imagining the instrument note also helps, a semitone up or down on these notes outside the syllables. this is more difficult, but it gets easier.

so all the major scale solfege syllable notes and each group below is a different testing phase. currently i do about 50 questions. but it goes fast if the website advances after each guess. so you add the major scale and the notes on each number. so take out c and insert d for round 2.

  1. c

  2. d

  3. e

  4. g haha this note right here sounds so flat, and if it goes this note to the tritone it sounds like a cartoon

  5. a

  6. cd

  7. ce

  8. cg

  9. ca

  10. de

  11. dg

  12. da

  13. eg

  14. ea

  15. ga

  16. cde

  17. cdg

  18. cda

  19. ceg

  20. cea

  21. cga

  22. deg

  23. dea

  24. dga

  25. ega

  26. cdeg

  27. cdea

  28. cdga

  29. cega

  30. dega

or you can build up all the way and start from do so this first until you are 100% on everything before adding the above. you will likely have to transpose those notes above to whatever you use for do.

1.do
2.do re
3.do re mi
4. do re mi so
5. do re mi so la
6. do re mi fa so la
7. do re mi fa so la ti

beyond this i think it just amounts to hearing the clash of the notes as a whole and placing the remaining syllables on these notes. this might not get me perfect pitch, but i am gonna beat this game. haha. i started to put just do re mi in so f#, g#, a# and the harder notes g,a,c,d,e. just sticking to this for practicing on remembering the sharp syllables for now. i don’t want to confuse myself with flat syllables, but it might require it if say the intervals descends or ascends i might have to train my brain with both flat and sharp syllables. and which you use for flat or sharp depending on if it ascends or descends on the frequency spectrum or the major scale? (like if you descend frequency wise, but ascend scale wise and vice versa). or i was also thinking to just make up new syllables that sound unique for easier remembering. but these solfege sylllables are so engrained i don’t think making up my own at this age they are going to stick. but maybe thats just my analytical brain kicking in, and i should just do it. i always seem to make the biggest jumps when i get frustrated, start pressing the buttons,angrily, and then my brain relaxes back into it and i can go until i almost win. haha.

it seems like the longer my sessions go now the worse i get, but if i come back those inbetween syllables will punch out more on their place inbetween the syllables when i run 12 tones. sometimes i prefer the distance to be further its when the chromatic starts running around is when it throws me off especially with the di, ri, and si notes. the tritone fi and li dont trip me up very often.

ok this is going to be my new final method. i am going to be using tuner pitched app off android. i will use the note function to show note and octave. i will only use this for record purposes. i am going to play the game every note notate, i will notate what syllable i hear in my mind, and if i got it right. this way i can see if i find discrepancies or similarities on where i am getting off at, or if i can figure out where i am hearing these syllables in the wrong place in certain groups of notes that clash against my major scale solfege.

its like i could dissect it out for you guys and explain whats going on through tetrachord analysis.

this is major scale stuff, i am going to use solfege syllables to not throw things off. remember i am just consistently hearing major scale, and trying to listen for the other tones as it surrounds this sound to pinpoint the notes. i will be notating lower and upper tetrachords as other solfege syllables, and giving them a specific color just for ease of understanding. First to grasp why this is would be to follow my other thread about hearing tetrachords in a blindfolding setting, and first working only in white key territory. Starting out hearing the tetrachords, then being able to just hear the upper and lower tetrachord flavor after picking one random note. This takes maybe a day or two, but it doesn’t take long. Then you will understand why this color association is actually right. not in the literal sense, but if you follow the structure of them you can see why the associate the term color to sound. I feel like the primary colors (red yellow and blue, still unsure of what to use for lydian tetrachord, because do and mi dont make fa. but for simplicity this is what i used. if you have a better suggestion let me know. maybe it would be better to use another color.) of this scale are Do, Re, and Mi simply because they both share the same tetrachords. Every other note is a mixture of these main colors. I am also notating Fa as the whole tone tetrachord or lydian** tetrachord or however you want to describe it. other than this i do not have perfect pitch, but i know there exists this ability, and it can be found if you test intervals in one key for awhile, and switch to another key. if you utilize solfege syllables, when you switch keys you will get thrown off. this perplexity in my mind is shifting from the absolute to relative. switching the syllables to the tonic of the key.

Major

Do Do/Do Red Major/Major
Re Re/Re Yellow Minor/Minor
Mi Mi/Mi Blue Phrygian/Phrygian
Fa Fa/Do Violet Lydian**/Major
So Do/Re Orange Major/Minor
La Re/Mi Green Minor/Phrygian
Ti Mi/Fa Indigo Phrygian/b5Lydian** (b5 because it falls on the flat 5, no tritone)

Out of bounds notes

Di
(Do sharp)

In between Do and Re
Do/Re and we simplify further
Do/Do-Re/Re
Red/Orange/Yellow

Ri
(Re sharp)

In between Re and Mi
Re/Mi
Re/Re-Mi/Mi
Yellow/Green/Blue

Fi
(Fa sharp)
In between Fa and So
Fa/So
Fa/Do-Do/Re
Violet/Red/Orange

Si
(So sharp)
In between So and La
So/La
Do/Re-Re/Mi
Orange/Yellow/Green

Li
(La sharp)
In between La and Ti
La/Ti
Re/Mi-Mi/Fa
Green/Blue/Indigo

I am listing this here so when I notate where I am being thrown off, to see if i can see maybe if it is because there is some tiny amount of color in the wrong answer compared to the right one.

This is why I feel like these flat and sharp syllables just won’t work. They are not unique enough, and share similarities with the in bound notes syllables as well as they all are ‘eee’. Or another thought I had was to experiment in higher note per octave microtonal music, listen to it for awhile like a few years, learn some stuff. then come back to see if i can hear where things are more clearly.

the more i do this the clearer the remaining out of bounds syllables become, sometimes i can hear the syllable makeup and its sharpness or flatness. other times i have just done it so much making mistakes and getting guesses that i can sort of feel my way through the woods until i find the meadow. won’t be long, i know i will beat it. :smiley:

i won! do i have perfect pitch haha hell no! but i beat it single note atonality! screw harmonic interval atonal game if one exists. XD!

Is your goal for this to have perfect pitch? Or are you just trying to get the most out of solfege? My experience with solfege is that I credit my pretty decent relative pitch to it. The way I did it, I definitely moved to other keys. Maybe there is some merit to keeping Do ‘fixed’ at f# though and you could begin associating actual pitches (not just scale degrees, as we do in relative pitch) with solfege syllables. From what I hear the success rate of ‘learning’ perfect pitch as an adult is not great. Many claim it’s impossible. But like you said, you can do the grind, so why not prove them wrong? :wink:

I do think in general that strengthening relative pitch yields much better results that are usable in real life situations. Doing the ‘moveable’ Do definitely helps with that because it solidifies scale degrees in our mind’s ear. I’m not saying solfege is a crutch or anything, but during my journey I slowly drifted from it. Rather than hearing “Do re te” I now hear it “1 2 b7”. And that translates better to applying it to an instrument, or even transcription, if that is your goal. Again, not sure what your exact goal is.

Sorry to be a stickler but that “F” (ti) should really be an “E#” to keep this all diatonic lol!

Good luck with all this in general, you’re doing your ears a great service.

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well the problem i see is that when i come back i can ball park it basically in a pentatonic pitch association spectrum like my do could be b c or c#. its not exactly precise, but the ballpark is always there no matter what. so i think some people are better at acute pitch sense. and i am unsure if this will ever change. only time will tell. but i am going to try to at least do this little workout everyday for about 30 minutes to an hour. and anywhere else i can sort of thrown in some fun practice. haha makes for good practice when i am on the john.

do you feel like this sort of happened naturally and the solfege syllables just fade? or are they always there in the for front?

oh if you are into solfege look at the new book that came out recently, the solfeggio tradition a forgotten art of melody by nicholas baragwanath. wish i had a job haha i would buy the book in a heart beat. look up the videos on youtube, there are some of him being interviewed. but its basically in depth guidonian hand hexachord solfeggio stuff. but i feel that we are all just musically lost cause we didnt sight sing enough as kids. basically sorta musically illiterate, not really our fault cause they were keeping this language a secret.

so its like when these perfect pitch brats are identifying tones they are just exercising their musical comprehension. ours is unnutured. but i am in america so i didnt get the solfege experience in school haha. just ceee,deee,eeee,f,geee,a,beee real monotone not very unique letter association. :confused:

so i feel like my efforts are reverse engineering this shit. like what i am doing here.

lol! You definitely get points for being efficient with your time hahahaha!

I think it was a conscious choice I made since I thought in real world scenarios being able to call up the scale degree would be helpful. Example: if I’m in G major, figuring out a song and I hear the pitch that I know is “sol”, it’s is way quicker for me to think instead that it’s the 5th scale degree I’m hearing, then my brain can immediately map that to the D natural that I need to play. Ditching the solfege syllable in that context saves a step. My brain needs all the help it can get.

I don’t feel like the syllables ever faded though. They are ingrained from all the ear training courses at college.

Anecdotal, but a girl in my college class told me that in Europe they do the ‘fixed do’ and that they have more cases of perfect pitch than Americans. I never bothered fact checking her since I typically question any stats or studies on things like that :slight_smile: I could see it having some merit on young kids. They are constantly singing ‘doh’ and it’s ALWAYS on the note C. Young minds are sponges and they may start associating the actual pitch with the syllable. Maybe perfect pitch follows naturally from there.

Then other times it probably just happens very organically. Also anecdotal, but one of my students had perfect pitch. I know he never worked at it. It was just something he could always do. An Eb sounded like an Eb to him, just like a G# sounded like a G# to him, as did all the other notes. He was a nice but very odd fellow. In terms of ‘playing’ he was very mediocre, but he had perfect pitch nonetheless. He ended up ditching the pitched instruments and majored in percussion in college. So for whatever reason, God totally decided to waste the gift he bestowed upon the boy lol!

Moral of the story? Just work on relative pitch. Even Rick Beato recommends that and his son has one of the most advanced ‘cases’ of perfect pitch I’ve seen.

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its not some gift bestowed by the gods though and this is what i am seeing. they just learned it very early so they dont realize its still relation to the note the instrument is tuned to so most likely A440hz. so in essence its just perfect relative pitch, whether anyone can comprehend this or not. its basically they just associated those syllables subconsciously and it stuck cause they were young. so now they have a permanent memory of how this and that note sounds in the 12 tet system. however for myself it will be like a second language the syllables will lead me to the absolute, maybe, if some notes syllables to the concrete frequency note associate permanently but i will never be as fluent as someone who learned this as a kid who doesnt understand why they have it. kinda like if i can remember a melody, these people were faking it with melody triggers in the past, and using them to practice in a sense their sense of pitch. this in itself is like the second language thing. its like if i can recall the simpsons melody to find a note isn’t that like thinking of the word in english before translating it to spanish in my mind? this is why those autistic kids can learn music so well, because there minds are always in the child like state.

ok maybe in some sense it is a gift, but everybody has this gift. god gave us music, now the ability people inherit is one of human nature. the 12 tet system wasnt from God, we created this tuning system. if we are going down the higher power path i would put God’s system at the harmonic/overtone series so i guess just intonation?

that is really all this is here anyways. perfect relative pitch, with a tonal center that unfortunately will likely never become grounded, or like he is teaching his son using A440hz but difference being his son is concrete. :wink:

difference being i will hear the color, not sure if his kid hears that or if he is just hearing the absolute. for instance i can hear the phrasing language, phrygian, diminished, major, minor, and whatnot but does his kid hear this also or just the frequency? cause absolute is like the absense of color flavor, and more just exact color unless you start hearing relationship you miss out on color flavoring. or how much relation does he hear amongst that sea of silly jargon his dad is forcing him to remember that wont amount to anything other than a parlor trick. basically does he just know abc’s or does he also know some language?

i mean i guess time will tell eh if he wastes it or not haha!

Even if your local library doesn’t have it, they should be able to get it on interlibrary loan.

haha i wouldnt be able cause they would ban me for never bringing it back.

Perfect relative pitch and perfect pitch are not the same. PRP is a skill. Although yiu need a bunch of inherent ability to learn that skill. Perfect pitch is not learnable.

define perfect pitch i would say. haha. for one it isnt perfect since equal temperament is not a perfect system. that would be just intonation, and that is one key, which is perfect relative pitch. it is a relative perfect pitch memorization association using A 440hz as a reference for equal temperament tuning. so with this very precise definition i laid out for you, doesn’t that smell like perfect relative pitch with A440hz as the very beginning note? but yes since the tuning system can play in all keys you won’t need to think of it in this fashion. you can anchor anywhere, and still remain grounded. but only after you memorize the notes.

the hoopla about super memorization, or creativity, or anything else is a moot point. given enough time someone playing this game as myself. you could go to your microwave, and instead of trying to answer correctly on this game. listen to the beep, and you will find out just how easy it is, it is indeed learnable. but it might not be what you are thinking, like some super human gift. you listen to a piano single notes enough, mimic back with a blindfold on, and these other sounds will start to associate to oh that sounds like the b on the piano, my microwave beeped a b hot damn, ok now what, lmao, oh ya just so you think its bullshit i will go get my tuner, jeez people are so drawn to the negativity on the internet it is insane. i mean hell how do you think they are doing it? however i have played it alot so i can carry these solfege syllables around for along time in my mind. even upon waking after sleep they are still right on. but if i stop playing ya it will fade i would imagine.

i would say go find the video of the two set violin channel on youtube where he talks about sometime during his teenage years he developed it.

but i mean i use to be a gamer, so it was kinda fun after the first initial stage of never getting anything right. i seriously got to the point i almost broke my phone, and laptop. so this is not for the faint of heart. haha! i am talking i take it into the 1000s of guesses as it plays me a random note, currently i am about 70% sometimes it can go up to 80% but that is only when i feel super focused and in a refreshed state from being away.

the way i can put it when i play the game the tritone, and a few of the upper tetrachord in between notes are like my light coming out of the woods or going into the woods. if its not one of these notes well then i either have to try to listen very acutely or it will lose me. all the natural notes are like a brisk walk in the meadow. if the game keeps throwing me oddball notes i have to feel my way around, the more i play the better i get at it. at first i didn’t think it would get easier, but it actually is. sometimes when i hear these spooky notes i will hear flashes of the solfege syllables like its trying to sound out but not, however i know this is close to this syllable, sometimes this trips me up though and i believe it to be a curse of these newer solfege syllables not having unique phonetic syllables, like fah and lah or doh and soh the ah/oh part could throw me off. you see do use to be ut, and i have a feeling all the syllables had unique pronounciations. i honestly feel if there was a 12 syllable system each with unique phonetic sound everyone could easily develop this skill, but you have to do it as a kid unfortunately. if its the tritone or one of the upper tetrachord ones boom nice. now it gets tricky if the next note is one of those spooky notes is when i either get another one i know or it might try to lose me. but the more i am refreshed the easier it is to find my way when it throws me out of bounds into the woods.

its like if you play a video game enough you get this thing called burn in. i am experiencing this here, i can hear the stupid piano notes in my mind all the time. :smiley: so think about that now if i am walking around and i hear some random beep, my brain will be like oh shit game mode. but however i am trying to hush this shit up cause i dont want to appear like some lunatic. rofl!

oh yes there would definitely be levels to this ability, single notes, harmonic intervals, triads and beyond, key signature identifying. but we are just speaking frequecy here, lets not try to taint it with memorization or creativity or speed. perfect pitch is not the ability to remember music only the frequency the abcs. its not even major, minor, phrygian, diminished, augmented, whole tone, chromatic. hearing that this note is Do or C is all it is, it has nothing to do with how we perceive the interval to sound or the chord or the scale or the phrase. hell i wouldnt even be able to do that as fast as i am playing this game i just hear the solfege and proceed in 12 note atonality. i can tell you right now it definitely is not some intervallic relation when you go into out of bound territory. these notes have unique sounds, very bad sounds, also very very similar in some instances, but they do have differences. the more you play the more you hear it.

like i have stated in previous posts when i come back to the game after a few hours or in the morning when i wake up. i hear the very first note, it is not clear. I start to panic, but i calm myself. i listen again, just listen, see if i hear the solfege, ok yes. pick the note, sometimes right, sometimes wrong. but here is the thing i will choose the note right next door either one way or the other and its almost always this note. so i think everyone has a sense of pitch, some are just more refined than others. it might not be learnable to the degree that some master has it, but you can do it. you just have to try.

lets not go into it too deep though like harmonic overtones, and timbre,and what not. again i say to you speed is not something you need to focus on. i saw a video of a guy with a sax doing it he calls it true pitch, but its the same thing. like i said he can do it, but since he didn’t do it from birth he relies on his syllables he uses on his saxophone. or what i feel like he is doing is basically just the solfege. so when they put him against someone who learned it as his mother tongue he isnt as fast. but if you start digging around you will find this is where it stems from in the very beginning with the syllables in the church. but i put up the book that probably goes more into it, its just basically very ingrained guidonian hand hexachord solfeggio.

yes i have been skeptical to if i can anchor to the notes. but you wont know until you start making mistakes, and i mean alot. honestly i think sometimes when i build up to all 12 that its really just pointless, and i should just grind with all 12 all the time. but it doesnt take long so i just do it anyways. and so you dont go thinking oh he isnt using all 12 when he gets his first note. let me stop you right there because i do make sure all 12 are active, and it picks me a random one. :wink: i am not bullshittin around here. but i like to think of it as a game so i dont get to bored, and leave music for good. and maybe it is not learnable and we all have a sense of pitch if you want to put it another way. some people are on and some people are just way off. haha!

think of it this way what if music was 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 notes to the octave. couldnt you tell between 2 notes if thats all we had? Not learnable my ass, come on dude don’t believe all the negativity. Hell ya it is hard as hell, think of it trying to learn how to read and write or learning a second language. This aint for the faint of heart. will i ever even be fast at it nope. but i gave up on the speed, its all people ever focus on there are other forms of music that i really like, actually ambient stuff using synthesizers.

do not buy into the meditation stuff, it in a way it is sorta, but unless you start making alot of mistakes you won’t get why these charlatans say its like a meditation. i don’t buy that bullshit one bit, unless you trip up, make mistakes, get frustrated, etc, etc, you won’t understand what it entails. just play one of these games for a few weeks, and consistently use solfege syllables in c major, then when you get that engrained, and 100% easy move to all syllables. throw them all in. trust me you will get pissed off, but just stick with it. do different variations, put them all back in, just mix it up, but try to keep do re and mi in the variations to ground your solfege. always mentally sing them when you know the note. if you dont know it dont sing it mentally, just listen. if you dont hear the solfege then get mad and start clicking until you find it to get to the next note. this is why you need to have the major solfege 100% no matter what so you wont have to go through what i did. since these are the primary tetrachord mode notes in major. become a mimic, play the simon game, haha! everybodies do re and mi could be different, but only until you throw all the 12 notes in will you find out. another thing i have been doing is when i isolate the out of bounds tones or i know for sure it comes up i literally sing the sharp solfege syllable aloud, then choose it. i think this is actually part of the process, you have to sing it aloud to be able to do it in your mind. similar to when you first learn to read, you read aloud first before you start reading the words in your head.

the reason they try to pawn it off as meditation is because you are going to learn the notes by alot of mistakes. so in a way you are like a monk, training, but with sound. but this doesnt mean just sit there in drone territory, or listening to pitches for hours blah blah blah. haha that is completely bullshit. however and this is why its probably hard for adults is because our creative side is likely gone so its like this last hurdle to deeply seat the pitches since we wont be making up our own songs, or playfully playing with the notes in a child like state, this is why they say it is impossible. so this is the final straw in the equation.

imagine if you will a room full of 12 pianos each tuned to a specific key in just intonation. each season you get to unlock one of them but the remaining ones are locked. you can do whatever you wish on this piano for 4 months. then this one locks and another one opens for 4 months. i bet you money if you did this shit you could develop perfect pitch. rofl. but this requires years of consistency, and actually learning and creating music on each one, not just goofing around. and different pieces, not just playing the same piece in a different key. oh and i forgot to mention at the end of it all you still have to utilize this reflection of this whole time to then apply your work to learning every tone in equal temperament by remembering the time you spent on each piano, remembering its tonality, feeling it.

Hey there, interesting thread!
just to clarify:
This book doesn’t deal with solfege, in the way you apply it, which also is probably the way most people would understand it today. This book is about the neapolitan tradition of “solfeggi”, which evolved in close relation to the partimento practice of the neapolitan conservatories during the 18th century.

These solfeggi are “educational” compositions, that give examples of good figurations and diminutions (aka melodies) over typical bassline schemata of the time, such as Romanesca, Circle of fifths, etc.
A lick library if you will for young musicians to draw from, when they were faced with tasks like improvising, realizing an unfigured bass line, etc.
They were to be sung with solmisation, however.

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yes it looks like a good book to delve into hexachord comprehension. but this book, and guidonian hand, is more like, if i am interpretting it correctly, like a shifted absolute, depending on the key of the piece, moving on the fly using neighboring keys solfege system.

Well, yes and no.
As Baragwanath explains it in the book, at first he was primarily interested in the particular genre of composed “solfeggi” I was referring to above, but once he started, he realized, that the solmization was never indicated in any of them. So he had to figure out the way they probably were being sung back in the day, by gathering whatever sources he could find.
And although it relates back to the guidonian hand, it is its very own system, that prioritizes learning musical vocabulary, and is much more open and flexible with the use of syllables.
I did not spend that much time with the solmization method described in the book, since I am more interested in the aspect of composing melodic lines, but I remember that there are some unique aspects to it, compared to modern solfege or the old guidonian hand system.
Like the notes g-a-b-g | a-b-c-a | b-c-d-b … sung as Do-o-o-o | Re-e-e-e | Mi-i-i-i

So the underlying voice leading schema of Do-Re-Mi is still present in the solmization, and the rest of the notes appears as diminutions or ornaments.

Later on, this would then tie in nicely with partimento practice, where a student would immediately know how to accompany a Do-Re-Mi schema with a proper bass line or an invertible counterpoint like a Cantizans for example.

So you are right, it shares some similarities with modern solfege and the guidonian hand, but I perceive it as geared towards another goal.

Baragwanath also mentions, that the use syllables might even be handled differently throughout a students development, changing with his level of skill

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What resources do you have on creating melodic lines, or techniques that you utilize when trying to be creative?

oh haha the one final testing grounds i forgot to add, every note except ‘Do’. :wink:

you never find resolve forever stuck in purgatory. :smiley:

So I have been noticing sometimes I get, Fi and Si, or Di and Ri, mixed up. And I feel this is because of my vocal range. The higher the register gets on the piano I start flipping these around because I cannot discern the difference if its sharp or flat against Fi So La or Do Re Mi in my mind because my range of voice is so low. When the tones are lower it is no problem. If I play for awhile this will most likely shift into the burn in, and the piano notes inside my brain will fire off, and I won’t make this misstep as much.

By this you just mean to help cement the melody in to the subconscious to internalize it for partimento or improvisation.

Does it explain how the guidonian hand shifts across the scale in more detail the only video I can find on it is one on youtube. but it’s hard for me to follow the one page diagram it has setup. as i don’t grasp the hard and soft part of it.

I am having way better success with di and ri tonight, very long grind session. prior in the day i was singing di and ri, and tonight they were coming in very clear in all 12 rotation. Looks like fi and si are the only ones giving me slip ups. But the differences are so small it is kinda crazy. This is why I say it is very acute listening. This ain’t perfect pitch its more like pitch sense. The definition is stupidly phrased imo. This game can be a pain in the ass too. The longer you string the more crazier the randomness gets. It might give you one major syllable, and string you around for 3 to 4 then bring you back in, and throw you back out. I don’t pay attention much to the octaves, but I know its doing it cause it keeps giving me the high and low tones cause i think it sees that I am getting wrong answers so it thinks that in order to help me get better it should keep giving them to me. its so annoying haha. and when you are listening for details, and the bright shininess high pitch squeal note rings wooo buddy that shit is like nails on a chalk board.

The other things I am noticing is the lower and higher register make my ears wince almost, and it can even be hard to hear any syllable in the tone. Because for me to spot di and ri difference I have to be focused, and when you get really obnoxious high register notes that shit is painful. I notice when I get in the groove its good, but man does it take a toll on my brain. When I stop to rub my head, and take a breather. The next pitch can sometimes sound muted with no characteristic like my body doesn’t care to listen anymore. :smiley: Thats when I prick my ears up for more. You guys better find me the harmonic interval perfect pitch test cause I am going to need a new challenge soon.

That is what I was trying to tell you - the book is not about that kind of thing. The solmizations Baragwanath utilizes are very specific to the performance of a particular type of 18th century composition with a clear didactic purpose, called „solfeggi“. The book is ultimately about that type of music, not a coherent system of solmization that can be applied universally.
Furthermore, in that context the solmizations are more of a tool for beginners to get started, but later on, it is often suggested to ditch them altogether, so long ornaments can be sung on more pleasant vowels like „a“, even though the scale degree would demand „do“ or „mi“.

BTW Elam Rotem is absolutely amazing! You should check out his ensemble, profeti della quinta!

If the guidonian hand seems a bit enigmatic to you, that is probably because it is an 11th century device, specifically designed for the educational demands of a 1000 years ago. I am not sure, if you have to know much about it, if your main interest isn‘t composing or performing in musical styles where it has some relevance. So, very broadly speaking vocal music that predates what we today call „baroque“.

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