Solfege is really helping me but i have questions

Harmony & Theory
#37

Did another test again this morning same thing in atonal all the notes align with f# as do. So i figured i would look at this movable aspect try to throw it off put C, D, E another do re mi in movable terms in for a bit. At first I didn’t hear it, but it sort of morphed into do, re, mi, and I could detect it. Ok so whew right? well put them all back in, and well Do was f#. ROFL! o.O Atonal random note transcribing really alters the senses in some way. here is another thought i had one chunk of piano keys is 12 notes, and maybe the way my senses are dealing with the complexity is that f# is almost like the center point with the radiating outward trying to sense where the notes are amongst the frequency. because the major scale will fit into it, but centered with the tetrachords centered around f#. think upper in the c# d# e# f#

all i can do is laugh really, cause how in the world if i decide to do fixed do would i even begin to use f# as do. this means fi is c rofl :confused:

for now i am just rollin with it whatever i say, i think everyone may be different. its just the way our voices reside along the spectrum perhaps. because if i map this sound on a low guitar string with my voice it puts my vocal range and maybe hitting the d or c below the low e string. and that c is quite hard for my voice to hit. maybe that is perhaps the upper tetrachord underneath the f# do.

Its pretty cool to everyday that goes by the inbetween syllables become more clear. Instead of being on the fence if re is ri or di the hearing comes much clearer on the sharpness or flatness of a syllable. This probably is the practice i do on my weak syllable mistakes.

Other things I notice other notes arent as clear at the beginning. But some syllables when I fire it up come in very clear so I guess I know only a few notes so far the others arent as clear. I just start over until I hear one that I know and check it instead of searching for the right note to hear the next one that way it prevents relative pitch.

#38

Dont you worry I will sacrifice for the greater good. I will go day after day, and we will see how far I can go. The radiating outward from Do to all 12 went really good tonight over 80% correct. I am likely going to switch to this website when I get this over 95%.

And get some punching bag cause i know 2 notes at once is going to really piss me off. :smile: and if there are different intervals woo buddy my brain is gonna splode.

Lets just focus on that one note thing for a bit longer haha. I am going to try to notate which notes exactly I am able to detect on the first note after hours of not playing. Waking up and throughout day, some are like hazy, foggy, others punch out Ive heard it on E B F#. Without a doubt those come in clear. There might be others, well the solfege I guess is how I sense the name of the pitch in my mind.

Another problem I am facing is the uploaded sounds fluctuate in EQ clarity. I have listened to them so much there are a few piano notes that waver and I can pinpoint this out so it doesnt really require any solfege association. Kinda sucks. Some octaves also sound more muted or possible lower quality codec compression.

I might try radiating out from the Fi soon on the tritone at my C then we will find out if this throws off Do at F#.

I think its definitely the color genetic aspect of each note. Like Do and So. Since these sounds reside with mostly major, and one has major and minor tetrachords as its genetic makeup. Discerning between red and orange is harder when you are older like our senses are dulled. Oh and also the higher or lower the note is also can make it harder to detect probably from loud noises at work dulling it also. The longer you play the more focused you can sharpen the sense. But when you stop it quickly fades. However some things remain as I am feeling each day I grind.

After I do my morning session I can flip over to guitar note trainer app on android, and the nylon sound is much more difficult to hear compared to piano. I can only hear ti and do right now, everything else would be relating to these tones.

#39

So here i was scoring pretty high this morning 80-90 on 100-300 question sessions. Immediately I would flip over to guitar note trainer to identify classical tone sound by ear. So what i see is for about 1 minute the solfege syllables come in so strong, but if I keep getting weak syllables that I only probably know on the piano side from the grind it starts to fade then it sounds muted or dull. If I go back to the piano game and play for about 100 or so questions then switch back same thing. Gotta get my relative pitch solfege game up.

Bad thing is though that if i put c,d,e,f,g,a,b in the piano game it sounds so screwy. Like b if fa and f is ti the rest is pentatonic. But it can change sound back to major if i flip the syllables around, but i still feel the sense of F# major inside it like a dull version of C major rofl! Wtf!

I will say in the morning my ear is much more accurate. Throughout the day it gets worse. I notice the higher and really low frequency pitches between the main solfege syllables easier to detect right upon waking from rest, nap, or morning. The more tired i get these just sound like nothing but blurry. But it feels like if I dont start singing these piano blip pictures that occur from so much grinding my progress is quickly going to plateau. I think this is the next step to actually sing the pitch to solidify.

#40

I think it’s better to use 123 numbers instead of, do ray me etc.
It makes more sense to have the scale degree in your vocalization rather than, do re me. I’ve been struggling with getting a grip on scale degrees intuitively. I think when you’re Young you learn in a really intimate way, and that gives kids perfect pitch if they are taught young. But as an adult it takes serious work to learn things in an intimate way.
If What you’re doing is logical to you you can dive into that and find your bearings.

#41

Haha with as much as i am doing this it dont matter what degree you say any syllable and i could tell you degree number rofl! I struggled with the sharp syllables for a few days but once you do this 1000 times the other 5000 it just becomes so boring.

I need a way to use my deepmind 12 to play a random note via midi so i can change up this stupid piano rofl! At least with the deepmind I could listen to some far out synth tones.

Ok so I am able to kinda do it via midi ox by using the laptop keyboard to activate the deepmind which makes it harder to discern between white and black keys when reaching blindly. So for now I will utilize this when I am at the house. Mobile I will grind on the website.

Ok here we go. Random 50 note chromatic whole note on the slowest bpm generated midi file into audacity with midi on deepmind 12 ahh finally my ears get a vacation.

https://random-music-generators.herokuapp.com/melody

it has a custom pitches as well so this will be good for my variations but you gotta sign up.

Im starting to perceive this isnt that complicated in a single tone melody isolated. Its just a matter of hearing all the tritones in a big group, with the practice of shifting through them all. Basically 6 tones each with a tritone. Maybe thats why they have the hexachord as six notes.

Do
Major/Major (Tetrachord makeup)
Red

Do Tritone
Fi
In between Fa and So
Lydian/Major/Major/Minor
Purple/Red/Orange

Re
Minor/Minor
Yellow

Re Tritone
Si
In between So and La
Major/Minor/Minor/Phrygian
Orange/Yellow/Green

Mi
Phrygian/Phrygian
Blue

Mi Tritone
Li
In between La and Ti
Minor/Phrygian/Phrygian/b5Lydian
Green/Blue/Indigo

Fa
Lydian/Major
Purple

Fa Tritone
Ti
In between Li and Do
Phrygian/b5Lydian
Indigo

So
Major/Minor
Orange

So Tritone
Di
In between Do and Re
Major/Major/Minor/Minor
Red/Orange/Yellow

La
Minor/Phrygian
Blue

La Tritone
Ri
In between Re and Mi
Minor/Minor/Phrygian/Phrygian
Yellow/Green/Blue

Maybe this is the reasoning for six tones in the hexachord? The tritone?

Like listening for six tones, and their evil brothers rofl!

Maybe this tritone paradox has to do with peoples fixed do note.

http://deutsch.ucsd.edu/psychology/pages.php?i=206

Another surprising consequence of the Tritone Paradox concerns absolute pitch - the ability to name a note in the absence of a reference note. This ability is generally considered to be very rare. But the Tritone Paradox shows that the large majority of people possess an implicit form of absolute pitch, since on listening to this pattern they hear tones as higher or as lower depending simply on their pitch classes, or note names.

If anyone can find any information on this test she did with the Tritone so that I can see if F# is why I hear the scale on Do in atonality perfect pitch games.

I have a feeling if i isolate out these sets of tones for grinding do re mi, fi si li, and fa so la, ti di ri this game will be game over.

So in a way a Barry Harris was right its like a hierarchy of scales.

The other minor/wholetone tetrachord scale resides in melodic minor.

Its a matter of being really patient and trying to decipher in which set your note resides in do re mi or fa so la, but at the same time knowing it is ti di ri or fi si li also.

So the other good variations reside in both whole tone scales of the chromatic.

So it should be practiced with this in mind for beginner

Do

Do Re Mi

Do Re Mi So La

Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do

Then maybe Octatonics, and Major and Melodic Minor with upper tetrachord filled variations, maybe even setup phrygian and fill its upper tetrachord also.

Then both wholetone scales of the chromatic, and ending at the full chromatic.

Its like playing plinko your note gets thrown into this shifter it starts at chromatic then in the whole tone and gets segmented down through the 4 groups of 'do re mi’s, I wont get to much more complex but we could add the minor and phrygian aspect to this also do, re, ri and do, di, ri. Then you have to be able to aurally decipher upon which of the four do re mi set your note resides. But it requires some grinding and singing all your syllables to get to this point to use as a crutch when feeling stymed.

Like if I put the notes in B C F and F#, b is fa and f is ti, there is no way to unhear this, i cant be the only one. What gives! Rofl! These are all the main Do syllables. But we know C D E F G A B and F is Fa and B is Ti. So some how I am flipped.

C D E
F# G# A#
B C# D#
F G A

And maybe riding off this do re mi logic it would be best to use these syllables.

Do Ra Re Me Mi Fa Fi So Si La Li Ti

Ra and Me because thats where they fall in Do Re Mi.

So I was looking at these tritone pairs and this is what I discovered when I hear B to F its descending which is probably why i don’t hear B as Ti cause the resolution to the tonic is Ti Do this ascended cadence. But since I hear F to B that is ascended, that could be why. These are my pairs that I hear ascended.

D#,A
E,A#
F,B
F#,C
C#,G
G#, D

So if I try each one of these notes as the Ti Do only F to F# works. Freaky! The descending tritone pairs are just the opposite. And by Ti Do I mean like you are suppose to hear it from B to C. But it is so strong that without a doubt I know F# is my Do. ROFL! I can try every Ti Do pair, and nothing else has this quality to it but this specific pair.

tonesavvy.com if you guys put b and c you hear it as ti do right? or is this guy messing with my perception! f to f# is ti do for me and i believe it be because of the tritone paradox pairs. holy moley wish i couldve found this out when i was in my teens! rofl! my ear must be twisted up big time! mind blown! :laughing:

Whats even crazier is I only hear it mainly listening, if I actually play it they sound the same like in movable do… i can kinda sense it when I play and if I play the do re mi fa so la so fa mi re do ti do sequence in both keys C and F# I can sorta sense it but it fades fast when I am playing. But its clear as day only if I am listening. @.@

#42

I think singing numbers is a lot more limited, in terms of what it can give the student, in comparison to the solfege. But it is definitely easier to ‘learn,’ in that there isn’t that extra step of converting the scale degree to a syllable.

If somebody is just dabbling, or curious about ear training and wants to get the hang of scale degrees over a period of a few months or so, I think starting with the numbers is fine.

But I do strongly recommend the (movable-do) solfege for anybody who wants to be able to ‘take it to the limit’ with practical ear training and sight singing.

The reason isn’t so fancy or interesting, but it’s significant: one syllable per note means we can sing the melodies with the correct rhythms.

This might not seem like a big deal if we’re comparing " so so la so do ti" with " five five six five one seven" but say if we were doing something like the last few bars of a melody like “straight no chaser”:

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It’s not too hard to sing those ‘lyrics’ for that melody (albeit at a slower tempo) but if it were “five one two sharp two three four five sharp five six sharp six seven one sharp one” etc it’s just literally impossible because “sharp six” is two beats; we basically have to sing a different melody to make the numbers work.

For getting the hang of the basic difference in sound between a fifth and a seventh, I think numbers are fine; to internalize more difficult structures and melodies - and to problem solve ear training difficulties or sticking points, I think the solfege is superior.

Asterisk though: Obviously time spent on a numbers system, or time spent just using “la la la” for everything, is infinitely better than not working on these skills at all. I’m just speaking to the comparison.

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Solfege: fixed do or movable do
#43

Whats the sharp for? If it’s movable do just using numbers you wouldn’t say sharp. Or am I misunderstanding? Wouldn’t you have to say sharp with “do re me” for any scale thats not the basic major scale too?

#44

No, there are specific syllables for the sharps/flats. Ex in C major, F is “fa” but you wouldn’t say “fa sharp” if you were singing an F#. They have a syllable that already takes care of this → “fi”

1 Like
#45

oh yeah. I see.
I learned all this ages ago and just not put in the work to use it in practice so my understanding has degraded. Thanks for the explanation :slightly_smiling_face:

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#46

@WhammyStarScream , yeah, what @joebegly said; one syllable for all 12 tones

sharps do (di) re (ri) mi fa (fi) so (si) la (li) ti

flats the “e” is actually an “ay” sound, eg, me is said as “may”:

do (ra) re (me) mi fa (se) so (le) la (te) ti do

I’m sure somebody has solfege syllables for double sharp and double flat but even my own OCD nerdery might stop before that point.

Yeah it’s powerful stuff…it’s one of the trickiest things to talk about I think because the benefits are long term and the processes can seem so goofy…like “why am I memorizing and singing these simple melodies with these weird syllables when I could be practicing some hot licks?”

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#47

Or you could practice your hot licks using solfege too! Really bury those licks deep into your being. If my roommates thought I was annoying them with guitar pfft i can sing my licks wherever now! :smiley:

#48

The long term thing is what I’ve encountered, it seems like trying to grab at something in the dark. And it seems intangible. But I know with constant practice for long periods of time it does build into a subconscious feeling. I find that with scale playing, sometimes I just know where the next note I want is by feeling, from excessive practice. Though even that can be flailing your arms in the dark at times.

#49

Yes I think that’s one part of it, for sure!

#50

Honestly I feel that if it is beyond anything monophonic then some aspect of relative pitch will be used to identify the notes. Whether that be memory, or the sound itself, in my mind it would be impossible to not hear the polyphony. So this is where I am leaning on the fence if its more of some super memory, or a subconscious memory, than it is an ear hearing thing in regards to absolute pitch.

#51

Wouldnt you need some form of fixed do though for songs with multiple key changes? Regardless if its movable from the beginning, I mean when you modulate wouldnt you then need to use fixed do from the beginning movable do?

#52

@bradejensen for me, I just change the syllables to be in the new key.

I was recently analyzing “somewhere” from west side story and trying to come up with a visual to show what I had in my head. here’s part of it:

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jumping from that, into a key change:

image
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I just have to be aware that the “so” past the orange line is “so” for the new key, but it’s “me” in the old key.

Moving to the next part of the tune:

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There might be some method for modulations that I’m not aware of, but here’s what’s important:
IF we’re clearly in a new key, the root of that key will sound as “do”, the third of that key as “mi”, etc, so it’s important to use the right solfege for that key, otherwise what we’re singing just won’t feel right.

where fixed do is useful, imo is when there really is no key center or tonal hierarchy at all (which technically isn’t really possible, but it’s a matter of degrees and what we’re used to hearing) and we want a pure representation of pitches independent of the concept of tonal center. That is not the type of concept or music that has ever been interesting to me so it’s not something I’ve dug into much; 99.999999999999999% of the music that people actually listen to or play has clear key centers even if they shift quickly.

#53

I will have to disagree if your ear has been tuned in one key shifting into another doesnt mean another scale degree will sound like Do in that very moment. But once your ear tunes, yes it will sound like Do, but there is going to be a switching period.

Maybe this is why like in Back to the Future he is like watch me for the changes and try and keep up?

#54

Sure, but the fact is that “mi” will sound different in many contexts even without a key change, so we do what we can.

A good example is Beatles “Something.”
Verse is in C, chorus modulates to A. For the lyric “you’re asking me will my love grow” the vocal melody starts on C# (third of A.) by the time the singing starts, I think we hear that pretty bluntly as “mi”

#55

I am not entirely sure that you actually disagree with @JakeEstner here. The musical phenomenon you describe, is sometimes called „elision“ in music theory, and many composers make deliberate use of this to create smooth sounding modulations.
Agreed, the point where you start with the new key and stop with the old can seem a bit arbitrary if you feel the change differently, especially in more contemporary music, where there isn’t always a cadence or even a dominant (V chord) to cement the new key.
But all that @JakeEstner does is pick a point where the change to a new „Do“ makes sense. After all, you can’t sing two syllables at once.
I also think, that there should always be some hindsight involved when putting useful syllables to a musical line. These syllables themselves can carry additional musical information if used correctly, like recurring patterns, imitations, etc.
An interesting challenge I could think of regarding this is „black hole sun“ by soundgarden. What is the „Do“ there, and where do you change it?

#56

Blackhole Sun is just in A throughout, tuned down 1/2 step so concert Ab. No modulations to my ears, just lots of mixing between modes and some other devices used.

Another nice thing about movable do solfege is that even with modal changes we’re covered…

verse
mi so la, mi so la
In my eyes, indisposed

mi so la, do so, la mi
In disguises no one knows

do re me…fa me re…
Hides the face, lies the snake

do so so mi mi re fa
In the sun, in my disgrace

(chorus)
do re me, fa me re,
Black hole sun, Won’t you come

do mi re re do fa
And wash away the rain