Solfege is really helping me but i have questions

Harmony & Theory
#42

I think singing numbers is a lot more limited, in terms of what it can give the student, in comparison to the solfege. But it is definitely easier to ‘learn,’ in that there isn’t that extra step of converting the scale degree to a syllable.

If somebody is just dabbling, or curious about ear training and wants to get the hang of scale degrees over a period of a few months or so, I think starting with the numbers is fine.

But I do strongly recommend the (movable-do) solfege for anybody who wants to be able to ‘take it to the limit’ with practical ear training and sight singing.

The reason isn’t so fancy or interesting, but it’s significant: one syllable per note means we can sing the melodies with the correct rhythms.

This might not seem like a big deal if we’re comparing " so so la so do ti" with " five five six five one seven" but say if we were doing something like the last few bars of a melody like “straight no chaser”:

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It’s not too hard to sing those ‘lyrics’ for that melody (albeit at a slower tempo) but if it were “five one two sharp two three four five sharp five six sharp six seven one sharp one” etc it’s just literally impossible because “sharp six” is two beats; we basically have to sing a different melody to make the numbers work.

For getting the hang of the basic difference in sound between a fifth and a seventh, I think numbers are fine; to internalize more difficult structures and melodies - and to problem solve ear training difficulties or sticking points, I think the solfege is superior.

Asterisk though: Obviously time spent on a numbers system, or time spent just using “la la la” for everything, is infinitely better than not working on these skills at all. I’m just speaking to the comparison.

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Solfege: fixed do or movable do
#43

Whats the sharp for? If it’s movable do just using numbers you wouldn’t say sharp. Or am I misunderstanding? Wouldn’t you have to say sharp with “do re me” for any scale thats not the basic major scale too?

#44

No, there are specific syllables for the sharps/flats. Ex in C major, F is “fa” but you wouldn’t say “fa sharp” if you were singing an F#. They have a syllable that already takes care of this → “fi”

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#45

oh yeah. I see.
I learned all this ages ago and just not put in the work to use it in practice so my understanding has degraded. Thanks for the explanation :slightly_smiling_face:

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#46

@WhammyStarScream , yeah, what @joebegly said; one syllable for all 12 tones

sharps do (di) re (ri) mi fa (fi) so (si) la (li) ti

flats the “e” is actually an “ay” sound, eg, me is said as “may”:

do (ra) re (me) mi fa (se) so (le) la (te) ti do

I’m sure somebody has solfege syllables for double sharp and double flat but even my own OCD nerdery might stop before that point.

Yeah it’s powerful stuff…it’s one of the trickiest things to talk about I think because the benefits are long term and the processes can seem so goofy…like “why am I memorizing and singing these simple melodies with these weird syllables when I could be practicing some hot licks?”

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#47

Or you could practice your hot licks using solfege too! Really bury those licks deep into your being. If my roommates thought I was annoying them with guitar pfft i can sing my licks wherever now! :smiley:

#48

The long term thing is what I’ve encountered, it seems like trying to grab at something in the dark. And it seems intangible. But I know with constant practice for long periods of time it does build into a subconscious feeling. I find that with scale playing, sometimes I just know where the next note I want is by feeling, from excessive practice. Though even that can be flailing your arms in the dark at times.

#49

Yes I think that’s one part of it, for sure!

#50

Honestly I feel that if it is beyond anything monophonic then some aspect of relative pitch will be used to identify the notes. Whether that be memory, or the sound itself, in my mind it would be impossible to not hear the polyphony. So this is where I am leaning on the fence if its more of some super memory, or a subconscious memory, than it is an ear hearing thing in regards to absolute pitch.

#51

Wouldnt you need some form of fixed do though for songs with multiple key changes? Regardless if its movable from the beginning, I mean when you modulate wouldnt you then need to use fixed do from the beginning movable do?

#52

@bradejensen for me, I just change the syllables to be in the new key.

I was recently analyzing “somewhere” from west side story and trying to come up with a visual to show what I had in my head. here’s part of it:

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jumping from that, into a key change:

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I just have to be aware that the “so” past the orange line is “so” for the new key, but it’s “me” in the old key.

Moving to the next part of the tune:

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There might be some method for modulations that I’m not aware of, but here’s what’s important:
IF we’re clearly in a new key, the root of that key will sound as “do”, the third of that key as “mi”, etc, so it’s important to use the right solfege for that key, otherwise what we’re singing just won’t feel right.

where fixed do is useful, imo is when there really is no key center or tonal hierarchy at all (which technically isn’t really possible, but it’s a matter of degrees and what we’re used to hearing) and we want a pure representation of pitches independent of the concept of tonal center. That is not the type of concept or music that has ever been interesting to me so it’s not something I’ve dug into much; 99.999999999999999% of the music that people actually listen to or play has clear key centers even if they shift quickly.

#53

I will have to disagree if your ear has been tuned in one key shifting into another doesnt mean another scale degree will sound like Do in that very moment. But once your ear tunes, yes it will sound like Do, but there is going to be a switching period.

Maybe this is why like in Back to the Future he is like watch me for the changes and try and keep up?

#54

Sure, but the fact is that “mi” will sound different in many contexts even without a key change, so we do what we can.

A good example is Beatles “Something.”
Verse is in C, chorus modulates to A. For the lyric “you’re asking me will my love grow” the vocal melody starts on C# (third of A.) by the time the singing starts, I think we hear that pretty bluntly as “mi”

#55

I am not entirely sure that you actually disagree with @JakeEstner here. The musical phenomenon you describe, is sometimes called „elision“ in music theory, and many composers make deliberate use of this to create smooth sounding modulations.
Agreed, the point where you start with the new key and stop with the old can seem a bit arbitrary if you feel the change differently, especially in more contemporary music, where there isn’t always a cadence or even a dominant (V chord) to cement the new key.
But all that @JakeEstner does is pick a point where the change to a new „Do“ makes sense. After all, you can’t sing two syllables at once.
I also think, that there should always be some hindsight involved when putting useful syllables to a musical line. These syllables themselves can carry additional musical information if used correctly, like recurring patterns, imitations, etc.
An interesting challenge I could think of regarding this is „black hole sun“ by soundgarden. What is the „Do“ there, and where do you change it?

#56

Blackhole Sun is just in A throughout, tuned down 1/2 step so concert Ab. No modulations to my ears, just lots of mixing between modes and some other devices used.

Another nice thing about movable do solfege is that even with modal changes we’re covered…

verse
mi so la, mi so la
In my eyes, indisposed

mi so la, do so, la mi
In disguises no one knows

do re me…fa me re…
Hides the face, lies the snake

do so so mi mi re fa
In the sun, in my disgrace

(chorus)
do re me, fa me re,
Black hole sun, Won’t you come

do mi re re do fa
And wash away the rain

#57

This looks like some sort of sequencer but you have used solfege. What program is this that you are using for solfege transcription? Its a cool way of going about it.

#58

Lol I am almost certain there is no program involved. I used to do this with random songs all the time. It is a great ear training exercise and more importantly, it has real world application. It allows you to totally transcribe anything by ear. Yes, the key may be wrong if you don’t have perfect pitch. But relatively the notes will be correct. IMO that will go much further in all around musicianship development than chasing perfect pitch.

I hope you’ll allow a constructive criticism @bradejensen that a lot of the things you post are these very abstract “challenges” or music theory brain teasers. If you enjoy them and think they are helpful, definitely keep doing them and ignore my suggestion :wink: My stance is with only 24 hours in a day, I have to be really choosy about what I spend my time on. Finding something with direct application to a real world scenario is always what I aim for.

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#59

hehe i know its just something fun to break the mold. i still practice my songs and improvising. sometimes i got to have a refresher behind the instrument, and take a break from grinding in certain zones. i also try to find theory stuff that might seem useful like ta ka gi na tom, all the other ones suck imo. but for some reason this one works for me, or it has helped me get a handle on 5s rhythm. i think it has to do with all the syllables are kinda unique.

definitely if this doesnt work for you don’t do it. it just helped me so i am sharing it in case it helps someone else.

#60

The graphic? It’s google sheets. And thanks - I was trying to make a display that would show the notation a bit like piano roll.

I think he meant the graphic a few posts back, rather than the ability to decipher the notes

#61

Ah thanks for that. I normally use the forum on my laptop and you can see more context in a reply to a post. That never seems to work on my phone and that is what I used today.