Some samples of my picking - you're invited to dissect me ;)

So,

after discussing in this Forum for a while I will put some recordings of my playing here. I think I’m heading in the right direction, so there is no specific question, but I’m hoping for some helpful advice anyway.

First some single string alternate picking, 16th notes at 200 BPM. It was a bit dark while recording, but still:

Next an Exercise I came up with to get rid of string hopping for outside strokes. It’s supposed to use 2WPS. I’m playing the string changes a few times 8th notes, exaggerating the slant change motion, followed by 2 repetitions with 16th notes. This is at 135 BPM. I had it up to 150 BPM some months ago. I can’t quite get that speed cleanly at the moment as it’s not part of my practice session at the moment.

Pedaltonelick, same topic, 105BPM. I’m speeding this up very carefully to not hop. No slow motion in this clip as it’s not that fast:

Here I show you some 3NPS 2WPS scale fragments up/down:

Here some 1NPS-Arpeggions using 2WPS at 140BPM (I think). I can’t maintain that for a long time, so it’s always just 2 repetitions:

Finally the good old Petrucci-Impeliterri-Moore-AndJustAboutEveryoneElse-1234-Exercise at 150 BPM. I’m playing it on 3 Strings only here, as my String tracking seems to throw off my “outside-downward”-string change a little. This is the hardest string-change for me at the moment although it seems to look o.k. in this example:

O.k. I’m looking forward to your comments. I’m very excited for you to make me an über-shredder (sorry for spelling über correctly :grin:).

Thomas

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Hey man, it’s awfully quiet in here - I’ll try to start the conversation while the big shots are busy :slight_smile:

Your movements seem very elegant and efficient! I can’t see any obvious issues.

Except perhaps in the tremolo clip: at these high speeds the movements become so small that the notes are a bit short (i.e. I have the impression the pick spends quite a lot of time touching the string). But I am not sure if we would hear the same through the amp - the unplugged sound is often not too representative. In any case I think just making the pickstrokes a bit larger would fix it.

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Thank you! I’m not too sure about my “sring-hopping-extermination-exercise”, sometimes feels a bit hoppy. I think I’m going to practice that a bit more.

I will examine that further by looking closer and playing amplified.
To be honest, what you mention here is something I recognized while picking 16th notes on the low E-String. I think it was due to the thicker string and wider amplitude so it collided with the pick during the “turnaround”. And, as you suggested, solved that by making wider picking motions.
Anyway, 200 BPM is about the maximum I can pick, maybe 210 if warmed up properly, so I wouldn’t expect it to be all too clean. I will practice that some more to make it louder or to be able to keep it up for longer.

Thomas

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Yeah I know what you mean! I think I also max out around that speed on single-string licks and it’s not so clean or reliable or generally pleasant sounding :smiley: . Luckilly there are not too many things that I’d like to play that require that speed.

Re outside picking: I also have trouble with repeated outside string changes. I either hop it or swipe it!

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Great playing! Sorry for the delay in commenting. As @Tommo mentions, we have been busy editing an interview. Couple thoughts:

  1. Relaxation vs. Going For It

You look very relaxed which is great! However I will echo what Tommo says about the movement. It sounds like you are playing extremely softly. Are you intentionally trying to use the lightest possible touch?

One consequence of playing really softly as Tommo points out is that the movement gets really small. The notes don’t speak clearly if the pick hits the string while it is still vibrating. I don’t know if that is exactly what is happening here, but it is something to look out for. You want to make sure your technique works fast and slow, and loud and soft. In other words, all speeds, all dynamics.

Another consequence of super light touch is that it can make it harder to synchronize the hands. In the tremolo clip, I can hear that the click is set to 200bpm, however you’re actually playing about 180bpm. When you do this kind of practice, you need a way of knowing when you are locked to the click and when you are not.

Generally the way that I worked on this was by adding accents on the beat markings and making sure they line up with the tempo. That requires using a little more force on those notes to get them to be louder. And when you do this, if you find that they do not line up with the click, then you might even need a little more force overall to speed up the pick. Your movement is already about as small as it can get, and going faster will only make it hit the string unless you put a little more power into it.

You can also look at this from the opposite approach: If you forget about being relaxed and just let loose and try to play as fast as you can with whatever technique you have that is the fastest, even if it is not the technique you are using here, can you go faster than this? If so, then you may have an “extra gear” that you are not fully accessing in this kind of practice. Meaning, in addition to the delicate highly controlled type of practice you are doing here, you could also mix in some aggressive athletic type practice and experiment with trying to bring those movements under control.

  1. Pickslanting

You’re using a setup where your forearm appears flat or close to flat on the guitar body, and close to parallel on the strings. So your “dwps” examples look a little more like crosspicking, or perhaps somewhere in between. There is forearm involvement and occasional wrist extension necessary to make the string changes, and this is not really how classic dwps works.

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with this if it is producing the results you like. As long as you don’t feel arm tension from stringhopping then I wouldn’t worry about it. I mention this only because I think it helps eliminate confusion when you are working on something to know why things look the way they do. When you see a player with your forearm setup, you know right away you are not looking at a typical dwps player, and you know you are going to see a movement that is uwps, crosspicking, or something else.

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Thank you!
And don’ t worry about the delay. You do not owe me anything! I’m happy about any remarks that do (or even do not) help me improve my playing.

Well I’m intentionally trying to use the smallest possible movement. As we already discussed in

Picking_speed = Force / Stroke_width

or as you said

Stroke_width = Force / Picking_speed

This is basically the same relation, the discussion was just a causal one.

Yes, that might have happend here. At least I already witnessed this while practicing fast, maintained open string sixteenth notes on the low E-String and widened my movement.

Yes, but in the “tremolo-picking”-example I’m just trying to max out speed. My intention is to accelerate “regular” picking, involving string changes by enabling to pick faster using my regular technique. Does that make sense?

Hmm, I was quite convinced, that I didn’t lag behind the click in this example. Did you count? There were some dead notes in the beginning, maybe that’s why you come to that conclusion. I can pick short bursts (2-3 beats) at up to 220 bpm. Anyway…
I already discovered losing notes while my “Open-E-String-maintained-16ths”-Exercise and I could always tell by not landing on a downstroke on the last click. This didn’t happen here. The accent thing is something I also thought about practicing. Thing is: I just couldn’t do it at high or even mediocre tempos. So I practiced to do what I did and speed it up, I can maintain clean, relaxed 16ths at just about 178 bpm on the low E-String, which is and has always been the hardest string to pick for me.

So:
What exactly do you mean by “more force”? If I just use more force to accelerate my hand, the pick will hit string with more velocity, but will that make the note louder? What mechanic is it, that usually makes a pick stroke “harder” or louder? I think it’s either the pick dipping in deeper, so the string snaps off later and thus louder (higher amplitude) or is it a harder grip (more force on thumb-pick-index finger)? I can’t do either up to speed (>145 bpm). I will work on that.

Interesting thought. No, I don’t think I have such an extra gear at the moment. Picking form the elbow does not make me faster. Also I’m not really interested in tremolo picking faster at the moment. My main goal is to speed up my “regular” picking and I mean several string stuff or also single-string stuff, but I’m limited to about 180 bpm at the moment due to my left hand speed and synchronization. the 200+ bpm practicing is a vehicle to speed up my regular playing at the moment.

Yes, my wrist is very close an parallel to the guitar body. Not that much while I’m playing regular (easy) stuff, but it tends to go there, when playing faster stuff. My dwps-examples (there was only one I think) are called dwps, because they would usually be played using dwps. I don’t consider myself a downward-pickslanter, as dw or uwps is always limiting what you are able to play or forces you to rearrange stuff. So the technique I have in mind for me is a neutral position with pick-slant-change for the string-changes, which is what I think I’m doing in all the examples here.

By the way, would playing 1nps stuff using 2wps be the same to you as crosspicking? Because I think, the results would be very similar regarding the path the pick-tip would take, but the motion would be different. It would result in something like you described in the macabre flamingo-golf-club analogy. That’s what I showed in the 1nps-example.

Thanks a lot for the time you took to analyze my playing. It is an honour to be torn apart by the master of picking science :wink:

Thomas

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That may be what you’re trying to do, but “movement size” isn’t an input you control - you only control force and speed, which it sounds like you already know. In these examples, based on how soft the acoustic sound of your picking is, it sounds like force is being modulated down. You set the click, that sets your picking speed. Then to make the movement “small”, you use the lightest possible touch for that pre-selected speed. That’s what sounds like is happening.

Again, if this works and you get results, that is all that matters. There is absolutely a rationale for not using too much force (or too much pick, which requires more force), to make the movements natural. I think this is really what the “small movements” crowd is really saying, without perhaps realizing it. And in this respect, yes, I agree. Don’t swing wildly using a lot of unnecessary power - that’s just going to make your movements feel awkward.

What I’m suggesting by using more power is an alternate “athletic training” style approach, where you don’t think too much and just try to move as fast as possible. If that produces a faster result, then you have something else to work with. It doesn’t have to be elbow - it can be the same mechanic. If it doesn’t, no worries, continue on!

I can only speak for my technique, but I sense no difference between “tremolo” and “regular picking”. Any speed I can pick, I can use it for individual synchronized fretted notes. The hyperpicking technique we have looked at may be different. Maybe it’s harder to control - I can’t say because I can’t do it yet. However for every other kind of motion mechanic I can do, they are controllable at every speed in my experience. Pushing your maximum speed higher just makes all the other speeds that much easier, no matter whether you are fretting notes or playing tremolo.

I didn’t count the notes, I counted the hand movements. So you get a free pass! :slight_smile:

Kidding aside, we’re talking about movement speed, not playing accuracy, so the hand movement is really what matters. Dead notes are ok for now. I just counted again using a three-second sample. Over that interval you played 35 notes, which is 11.6 per second, which is 700 per minute, divided by four is 175bpm sixteenths. This is about what it sounds like to me just by listening, so I think this is accurate.

It will! When we film players, accented notes are usually physically larger movements than other notes. Maybe more pick is involved too, maybe not - this is harder to measure. But the movement size is easy to see under the camera, and this definitely happens. This is something I learned about myself when we began filming slow-motion examples for our seminars. I didn’t know I was doing this at first. Viewers pointed out that when I advised using “conceptual accents” for chunking practice, they were not actually conceptual, they were real. You could actually see the accents in my playing where the pickstrokes are bigger, especially on single string licks like Yngwie patterns where speed was the primary variable.

What I can tell you just anecdotally is that focusing on the initial note of a grouping and hitting it harder feels like having an internal metronome. It is much easier to synchronize one movement out of every four (or six), than it is to synchronize every note individually. What we know from interviewing motor learning experts is that these movements eventually become stored as a single circuit that fires all the notes. In other words, you think “phrase” and the phrase plays. It may be that the accented note helps with this storage process. We don’t know, but it would make for a cool research study.

Either way, what I notice also is that players who do not do this type of practice almost always have synchronization problems, even if they have very fast tremolo speeds. I think this is why some players perceive “tremolo” as a separate type of picking movement that cannot be controlled.

So yes, hitting that note harder is somewhat more athletic and requires power. Maybe this is one aspect of being synchronized at faster speeds that needs more study. But I wouldn’t overlook the athletic aspect, even if it seems challenging at first.

This is not what you are actually doing. If you watch your 2wps example, you will see that the forearm moves when you do upstroke string changes, and doesn’t move when you do downstroke string changes. In other words, parallel forearm is not “neutral”, it is “primary up” two-way pickslanting. This is what John McLaughlin and Andy Wood do, and it’s fine. Every fast pickslanting player we have interviewed has a primary orientation. It only make sense. This way, any time you want to do a downstroke string change, no orientation change is necessary. You only have to worry about upstroke string changes.

This is what I was getting at with understanding your forearm position. You have already made choices for yourself, and these choices create limitations and also possibilities. It doesn’t really matter if that choice is supinated / primary down type orientation, parallel or pronated primary up - it just matters that you make one, and you understand what it is doing.

One thing which I will mention is that if you use a truly parallel setup, wrist-based crosspicking will not work. You must be strings-pronated or strings-supinated for that to work. Otherwise, you will need to involve some forearm or fingers to make up the difference.

Oh please. We’re appreciative of everyone that posts here because it allows us to keep doing what we’re doing. We learn, you learn, everybody learns.

You’re doing great so far I’m really just providing some details from things we have seen. Keep up the good work!

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So,

I have some updates to my playing. I made quite some progess, at least in my opinion. I focussed a little more on speed burst practicing. I practice the yngwie 6s (that’s the 1-string-pattern, right) at around 200BPM and my 2WPS exercise from above is around 170 BPM. I’m doing it for just 1 repition up and down. I think I’m a bit anxious about doing some repetitions in a row. I’m not sure if I should keep on trying to speed it up or if I should burn it in for a while and try to make 2 - 3 repetitions in a row. We’ll see.

Whatever, what I need right now is some opinions on something odd I recongized in the following pedaltone lick:

While the first string-switching exercise is quite efortless and fluid, I really struggle to play the pedaltonelick later on, although same speed and same right-hand-movment (at least it should be).

Am I doing something else, maybe some string-hopping, because I learned that lick that way years ago?

Is the first example 2WPS? Crosspicking? String-hopping? Anything that I should fix?

Tom

P.S.: Is the camera position good for analyzing my picking? Should I move the camera a bit further away? Maybe from a higher position? At the moment it is clamped to the upper cutaway horn.

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Anyone?

I just want to know if what I’m doing is gonna succeed in the long run, or if I should probably try to change to the “supinated-wrist-crosspicking”-approach for stuff like this.

Sorry for pushing this up again, but I concentrate on this kind of stuff in the little time I have for technique practice at the moment and don’t want it to be in vain. I can play the pedalltone-lick at around 128bpm at the moment and this might be a critical speed at which I might plateau because of string-hopping. If I make it up to 140, my question is answered, right?

Tom

I don’t get this… In the thread on “crosspicking without words” you explain how the arm and hand are positioned basically flat on the body/strings…?

Edit: Ok, I’ve read your post in that thread where you said you’re slightly supinated there.

Hi Tom!

I think what you’re doing here is making extension-y downstrokes from a parallel forearm position. In general that’s a recipe for stringhopping. However - there’s also a tiny amount of forearm involved here. So it could be that you’re doing a reeeeally tiny version of rotational blend crosspicking but sort of “trying not to” at the same time, because of your desire to be parallel. In a sense these two goals fight each other a little when it comes to crosspicking, unless you are willing to commit fully to introducing some forearm or fingers.

In general, if you want to use a pure wrist movement for crosspicking, then parallel doesn’t work. You need to be either supinated or pronated with respect to the strings. Neither one of these orientations is far from what you are currently doing, so you can try them both and choose what you like. You just need to tilt those bones a little bit so the deviation movement escapes on the downstroke or the upstrokes.

The flattest possible supination is achieved with “Mike Stern” style supination, where both palm eminences rest on the strings. That should tilt the forearm just enough without making you feel like you’re turning into a Gypsy player.

If you prefer a pronated approach, that’s Molly Tuttle / David Grier style and they use a thumb eminence anchor only. Again, only a small amount of pronation is necessary. You just need the downstroke to escape so you can do them with deviation alone.

For both types of practice, I like roll patterns like the forward roll. The patterns are tricky enough that they really only work well when you get the movement right. Plus they sound really nice acoustically, which is how it seems you like to practice.

Again, I’d also recommend putting a little more power into these movements, at least as an exercise. Not to where it feels awkward, but just enough so it becomes more obvious by the feel of the muscle activation what movement you are trying to make, and visually obvious by sight whether or not it is working.

Yes, that’s the concept I had in mind:
Changing the pickslant for every string-change to clear the adjacent string. That’s pure 2WPS which leads to some kind of rotational-crosspicking when playing this kind of lick.
I’m definitely willing to use forearm rotation for this, it just ends up being so delicate. I got this lick up to 130 bpm and it feels quite relaxed when I concentrate on making a more straight pick-stroke on the downstroke (pronated). Well see where this will get me.

Ok. I think it might make sense to explore the deviation/extension-crosspicking a bit to see where it will take me. What exactly is the forward-roll? As soon as I have practiced that for a while, I’ll post a video.

It’s not so much that I like to practice acoustically but as a working dad I usually find time to practice late in the evening when my wife and kids are asleep or during my lunch break in office, so cranking the Marshall is not an option. I practice amplified in office through my PC-speakers, but my GoPro is a lot closer to the strings, so they dominate the recording. I play on 11 during rehearsals or gigs then :wink:

This is surely correct and I already adopted your advice for my tremolo-picking and scale exercises and it seems to at least help with building stamina and for some exercises it also seems to make the playing a bit cleaner, as general clearance seems to be higher and thus less error-prone.

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