Hello gents, I’m a little unsure of how to get better at this section from Plini’s “Selenium Forest”. I explain the problems/uncertainties in the video (my deepest apologies for going a bit over a minute, but I felt it was needed).
Would you link to where this spot is in Plini’s studio track? I’m unfamiliar with the piece.
Assuming this trouble spot is all 16ths (or 32nds), I would practice it in beats, perhaps focusing first on 5 16ths (so starting and ending on a beat), then 9 16th notes, then 13, and then the whole thing. This will ensure that you are keeping it in time, and making it to the correct note when you should. Speed-wise, do this as fast as you can maintain accuracy.
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I am SO bad at doing stuff that involves ring → pinky. It may be worth a try re-fingering it and seeing how it feels with either [index middle ring] or [index middle pinky] where possible.
Here’s a link to the solo section of the song. If the timestamp doesn’t work, it’s at 1:07 in the song.
Yes, that’s a good idea to practice it in small blocks. I get the feeling that going slowly and deliberately won’t actually make me get better because my brain isn’t working hard enough.
I like @joebegly’s idea. Can’t you just use 123? Or just rearrange it to something else that’s easier for you. I’m a path of least resistance kind of person. It’s not like it’s Bach or something and has to be played this way or else. Unless you’re in the band, I suppose!
i.e. I’m not sure this is really a question about speed bursts or slow — or practice speed in general. This strikes me as a question of which fingerings are easier.
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You raise a good point @Troy , but I mean, I’m more looking at learning this lick as a way to level-up my overall skill. To substitute 123 fingers in for the pinky kinda defeats the purpose of even learning this in the first place. If it was for a live performance or something then I could understand doing that, but I really wanna gain independence/dexterity in my ring and pinky.
One of my biggest long-term guitar goals is to get my technique to a level approximating that of Rick Graham (who this solo is performed by). He has incredible finger control, and this comes out in his playing where you can see him do 3nps pentatonic legato lines (to take one example). As this is stylistically one of my goals to reach, I figured it’s one of the best things to practice. Although, you mentioned Bach; do any peices of his (or by anyone else) strike you as a better means of developing ring and pinky finger independence, control, strength, timing, etc.? For some reason I have always has an easier time getting better by learning actual songs, rather than mindless repetitive exercises. Most likely because it is much easier to maintain focus on a song than an exercise.
It may be possible, although I am really looking at this song as a means of improving my pinky/ring dexterity. So I’ll most likely try to stick to using these digits even though you are probably right that finger substitution is easier.
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Fair enough. All I know is…I’ve never seen anyone with a more scary left hand than Shawn Lane and he avoided ring/pinky like the plague lol! The more I learn about the greats, the more I suspect rather than trying to improve their weaknesses, they put more effort into capitalizing on the stuff that came natural to them. I think that’s a wonderful idea. I definitely never did this in my formative years and I think it was a hindrance.
If nothing else, getting awesome at something with an ‘easier’ fingering might help you even if you want to intentionally use a more challenging combination. You’ll at least have a baseline and great feel for the phrase.
Lastly, @Tom_Gilroy just wrote a(nother) really great post on finger independence and how it’s more mythical than anything:
His post is near the bottom. I’ll admit all the muscles mentioned make me have to read very slowly, but the cliff notes version is that there’s not really a true way to make our fingers independent the way most people think about that concept.
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I mentioned that because I’ve tooled around with transcribing some Bach violin stuff for guitar here and there, because we play a lot of mandolin in the house and the Bach stuff is always around. And I will tell you, most of that material doesn’t translate at all. It’s amazing how ugly and awkward most of these shapes are, when the same lines are are dead simple on mandolin.
It is very easy to write a line on guitar that is not fun to play for the fretting hand and never improves with practice. So I have very little appetite for trying to work on that type of stuff. As with picking technique, if something is too hard, I assume it is simply incorrect, so I don’t waste my time trying to “fix” it. I’ve got way better things I could be spending my time on.
With any kind of technique, the only effort I’m willing to apply is to make overall changes that make all things better. @Tom_Gilroy has spent a lot of time thinking about this stuff, and if he says a particular form is better for a certain type of line, he’s probably right. The caveat here is that not all lines can be improved. Some things are simply inefficient and that’s the way it’s going to be.
What I would resist is the temptation to work on specific lines that don’t seem to work, by “drilling” them or doing “bursting” or any of that stuff. Usually when something feels really off and doesn’t want to go, the problem is overall technique, not what you’re doing for practice. Or, if the technique is already optimized, then the line is the problem and it probably won’t improve. One of those two is likely the answer.
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Many excellent points you’ve brought up. I wasn’t aware that Shawn Lane strayed away from ring/pinky usage; from my casual observations of his playing I’d have thought he had worked very diligently on independence, but I could be wrong. I do recall seeing a Q&A session where he sort of incredulously remarked that his finger independence got better on guitar when he started playing piano. But then again he also jokingly remarked that he was “born with a freakish nervous system”, so I guess it’s a little too hazy to definitively come down on either side of the nature vs. nurture debate.
Here’s where Shawn talks about this subject and generally about how to play fast and build speed. It happens to tie-in quite appropriately with my initial question about speed bursts:
The Tom Gilroy post is interesting. I don’t really know what to make of it. Basically all of it flew over my head as a layman; I suspect everything he explained about the physiology of the hand and brain is factually accurate, but I’m unclear on what implications can be drawn from it. His assertion that finger independence exercises are at best a waste of time may be right, but then I guess my question would be, “what qualifies as a finger independence exercise?” Does this solo section I’m practicing fall into that category? I mean, it’s undeniable that an advanced guitar player has more independence than a newbie, despite the two of them having started out at the same relative skill level. So is that not considered “improving finger independence”? Perhaps I’m confusing it with a separate skill and @Tom_Gilroy would quibble with the terminology there.
At any rate, I’m left thinking that it MUST be possible for me to improve the timing and control. There’s literally endless examples of other players on YouTube and this website who have reached a higher level of ring/pinky independence than I. I’m left trying to square this fact with Tom’s assertion that you’re more or less born with a predetermined level of independence. Are all these players just blessed with the appropriate genetics? I suppose it could also be the case that there’s a confounding variable here such as excessive force/tension being used in less skilled players; i.e. a player could potentially be held back from reaching their “genetic potential” because they are playing with too much tension, and once they learn to relax, this allows them to reach their full potential.
If it really is the case that finger independence is a pointless endeavor, how do you know if you’ve reached your genetic limit, or you still have room for possible improvement?
Shawn had a very conscious, explictly stated preference for avoiding (3 4) combinations. It’s also very clearly evident in his playing. Eric Johnson also avoids (3 4) combinations unless it’s totally infeasible to play something any other way.
I think this was largely Shawn conceding that he didn’t really understand the how and why of what he could do.
Not to quibble on terminology, but this isn’t really “independence.” It’s the ability to coordinate within the constraints of finger interdependence. Terminology matters, it creates subconsious biases about how things are “supposed to be.” Words mean things, and what fingers have isn’t “independence” by any of it’s definitions.
My fretting hand fingers are no more “independent” now than they were when I first started playing, I’m just more adept at coordinating them within my anatomical, physiological and neurological constraints.
It is.
Very possible. It’s also possible that they’re just better at working within the constraints of their interdependence than you are.
To some degree, but it’s mostly about adopting postures of the hand which better facilitate the use of (3 4) combinations.
Absolutely the case in my experience.
You don’t. You learn learn how to optimise your positioning and mechanics to increase your facility with what you have, and you find alternative solutions which better accomplish your goals when something doesn’t work or feel right along the way.
You’re adopting a mostly parallel fretting posture and fretting near the finger tips of your ring and pinky fingers. Due to the length differential of the fingers, this requires you to flex the ring finger while keeping the pinky extended. This mechanically disadvantages the rign and pinky fingers and can only be accomplished through cocontraction of opposing muscle groups.
Players who prefer (3 4) combinations and who have good facility with those combinations typically adopt a more angled fretting posture, which more naturally facilitates these combinations. See my post on Paul Gilbert’s form here:
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Am I hearing a couple of right-hand tapped notes in that section of ‘Selenium Forest’?