Straight up and down sequences vs. alternative fingerings

Best explanation I can think of would be @Tom_Gilroy 's:

@Moje already mentioned Yngwie, which was the first guitarist I thought of when it came to patterns that aren’t “straight up and down”. I’ve heard that John Mclaughlin does something similar with patterns of four (I think, I’m not too familiar of his work).

Of things that I’ve personally learned / played, John Petrucci does have some cool phrases that mix things up, as well as Shawn Lane. I also know one-off examples of other players, but those two are talked about a good amount here and elsewhere.

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Ahhh beat me to it, Tom has some absolutely fantastic stuff via his EDC concepts that sound completely off the hook once one ramps them up a bit. Totally cool stuff.

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Wow, that is an amazing thread you refered to here. I just read through the whole thing.

I think I will post my question in another wording (my original wording here might have been misleading) under that thread. Thanks alot!

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Thank you everybody for the kind words about my post. If it’s ok with @Dairwolf, I’d rather continue the conversation in this thread. The original thread has grown very large and it might be difficult to navigate. Also, it was written soon after I had defined the concept for myself. I have a much better understanding of the concepts now and much better understanding of the relevant anatomy and physiology.

I’m way past proof of concept. As @Scottulus has mentioned, I’ve developed vocabularly based on these principles and I’ve demonstrated it in lessons.

So, as to the question, which I want to answer as well as I can. This will probably get quite heavy technically.

You are absolutely correct that most (in fact, almost all) fast guitar players have a strong preference for what you called “straight” cycles. That is, the forward cycles (1 2 3) or (1 2 4) and the backwards cycles (3 2 1) or (4 2 1) without an offset start.

At the level of the digital cycle, an offset cycle is no less efficient than a straight cycle. So, for example, the offset forward cycle (2 4 1) is exactly as efficient as the “straight” forward cycle (1 2 4).

However, this is only the case when the cycle direction is maintained without “jumps”. If you aren’t aware of cycle direction, you may be inclined to try something like this:

e|-------------|-------------|-------------|-------------|-------7-9-6-|
B|-------------|-------------|-------------|-------7-9-6-|-7-6-9-------|
G|-------------|-------------|-------7-9-6-|-7-6-9-------|-------------|
D|-------------|-------7-9-6-|-7-6-9-------|-------------|-------------|
A|-------7-9-6-|-7-6-9-------|-------------|-------------|-------------|
E|-7-6-9-------|-------------|-------------|-------------|-------------|
   2 1 4 2 4 1

This is problematic, because the first 3 notes of the pattern are (2 1 4), which is equivalent to the backward cycle (4 2 1), while the second 3 notes of the pattern are (2 4 1), which is equivalent to the forward cycle (1 2 4).

Alternatively, you may attempt something like

e|-------------|
B|-------------|
G|-------------|
D|-------------|
A|-------6-9-7-|
E|-7-6-9-------|
   2 1 4 1 4 2    

Again, this is problematic. The first half is (2 1 4) and the second half is (1 4 2). Both of these are equivalent to the backwards cycle (4 2 1). The “jump” from (2 1 4) to (1 4 2) doesn’t allow the backwards cycle coordination to be established and maintained. Moreover, this pattern itself doesn’t repeat naturally, since the first and last notes are played with the 2nd finger.

Units like those above appear semi-frequently in Brett Garsed’s and Allan Holdsworth’s playing at slow to moderate speeds.

If a cycle direction is consistent, an offset doesn’t affect the efficiency at the level of the digital cycle.

See this Shawn Lane pattern

and this Michael Romeo pattern

I’ve developed other patterns which begin offset and which are similarly fast. However, these are still relatively rare or unusual patterns. Most fast players simply don’t play patterns with these offsets.

I think there are two reasons why this is the case. Firstly, when we play quickly enough, the arc our fretting fingers move along is largely determined by our natural grasp action. We have little ability to “aim” each individual finger. The entire fretting arm is involved in aiming the fretting hand during movement. Think of the fixed guns on the wings of a WWII fighter plane – the pilots didn’t aim the guns, they aimed the whole plane.

The aiming for “straight” cycles with the standard 3 notes per string is relatively simple and familiar. Other patterns, be they straight cycles across multiple strings or offset cycles involve different “aiming” maneuvers.

The other major issue is something @joebegly has just mentioned in the other thread. Most players are only able to feel the repeating cycles as (usually uneven) triplets beginning on a leading finger – the 1st for forward cycles and the 3rd or 4th for backwards cycles. To do offset patterns, you need to learn to strongly connect the digital cycle coordinations to your internal clock and feel the cycle chunked from each finger. This is mostly a matter of exposure, as Joe mentioned.

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Thanks very much for the reply. The clips you attached are great. That concept you discovered is also very helpful. What immediately strikes me is that both examples are hammered instead of picked. I get the impression that the rare occasions when offset cycles are applied, they are not fully picked, but instead played with a combination of picking and hammering/ pulling off.

So I am still wondering whether there is some freaky shredder that manages to pull off these licks in a fast tempo without reverting to pulling off (sorry, couldn´t resist the bad pun).

Edit: I just noticed that this phenomenon you describe as “jumping” happens on the famous John McLaughlin Lick (2124), right? I guess that´s why that lick is also giving me trouble.

Happy to help.

Thanks again. Discovering the EDC concept was absolutely revelatory for me.

I’m not sure that there’s a correlation here. I don’t notice offsets adding any difficulty to picking sequences.

The EDCs facilitate absolutely bonkers fretting hand speed. In order to pick each note, you would need a picking movement that can keep up, and the margins on error in synchronisation are very tight. I can imagine that if the cyclic patterns aren’t even, strongly connected to your internal clock and you aren’t able to feel the pulse of the cycles from an offset starting point yet, this would be extremely problematic for hand synchronisation.

However, I would suspect that most of the reasons to incorporate hammers (or hybrid picking) is because it allows the principle to applied to achieve a much more expansive set of patterns. There is only so much that can be done with even numbers of notes per string alternate picking and one-way economy.

This should actually be very possible to test, though. Any “pick perfect” EDC sequence can generate five others by changing the starting digit or reversing cycle direction. So, for example, the Shawn Lane descending fours and fives pattern (pick perfect for USX)

   u d u d d u d u d   u d u d d u d u d etc. 
e|-9-7-6---7-6-------|-------------------|
B|-------9-----9-7-6-|-9-7-6---7-6-------|
G|-------------------|-------9-----9-7-6-|
D|-------------------|-------------------|
A|-------------------|-------------------|
E|-------------------|-------------------|
   4 2 1 4 2 1 4 2 1   4 2 1 4 2 1 4 2 1 etc.

Can be offset, maintaining the same picking sequence, giving

   u d u d d u d u d   u d u d d u d u d etc. 
e|-7-6-9---6-9-------|-------------------|
B|-------7-----7-6-9-|-7-6-9---6-9-------|
G|-------------------|-------7-----7-6-9-|
D|-------------------|-------------------|
A|-------------------|-------------------|
E|-------------------|-------------------|
   2 1 4 2 1 4 2 1 4   2 1 4 2 1 4 2 1 4 etc.

or

   u d u d d u d u d   u d u d d u d u d etc. 
e|-6-9-7---9-7-------|-------------------|
B|-------6-----6-9-7-|-6-9-7---9-7-------|
G|-------------------|-------6-----6-9-7-|
D|-------------------|-------------------|
A|-------------------|-------------------|
E|-------------------|-------------------|
   1 4 2 1 4 2 1 4 2   1 4 2 1 4 2 1 4 2 etc.

Similarly, we could reverse direction from backwards to forwards and produce three more solutions.

I sincerely doubt that anybody would think to play either of the variation patterns unless they explicitly understood the rules of the game, being the classic USX picking formula and the EDC concept.

Truthfully, I haven’t practiced either of the variations given above, but having spent just a couple of minutes with the first variation (starting on the 2nd finger), I know it would work with some practice.

The McLaughlin lick is (2 1 2 4), correct. This isn’t an EDC as I have defined the term, and the reuse of the 2nd finger can be troublesome.

Watch carefully

Notice the “rocking” motion that McLaughlin makes with his wrist while playing this line. Much of the movement to lift and refret with the 2nd finger combing from this rocking motion.

This fretting sequence appears in some of Shawn Lane’s playing. This pattern from Power Licks is (2 4 2 1), which is (2 1 2 4) offset by two notes.

This pattern isn’t as fast as the EDC based sequences on Power Licks, and the “rocking” action is also visible in a better quality version of the video also.

In my experience, there’s much less freedom with what can be done with the 2nd finger in this movement pattern than with the general EDC.

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I think those alternative patterns throw me off a little because I have to “rethink” or pay more attenton to the coordination of the fingers of the left hand - when do I leave a lower finger fretted, when do I release it etc.
I am one of those people that apparently took the left hand for granted. I might need your help for this problem in general, you seem to know a lot about the left hand mechanics.

Funny thing is, my left hand feels much smoother atm as I try out the alternative cycles. I think the knowledge of the EDC and just watching some of SL´s ridiculously smooth playing might play a role here, apart from practicing.

Those alternative patterns you wrote down there for the 4-5 licks are really interesting, I might give that idea a try.

About the John McLaughlin lick: I do have a specific question here. Would you say that the timing of the fingering is as follows:

2 frets as first note on the string → 2 is being released while at the same time 1 frets → 2 frets while 1 (lower finger) remains on the fretboard → (where my uncertainty creeps in) 4 is fretted while 1 and 2 are being released, 2 and 1 get in position hovering over the next string.

This is an easy one. With EDC based patterns, you don’t leave lower fingers fretted. Leaving lower fingers down is valuable on turnarounds from the forward cycle to the backward cycle, which make use of the “reveal” idea I discussed in the original thread. There are other licks where leaving lower fingers fretted and using the “reveal” idea is optimal (for example, the Yngwie six note pattern).

I’m happy to help on the forum as I can, when I can. However, I am available for lessons/consultations if you’re interested.

Cool. Let me know how you get on! If you prefer DSX I can give you an alternative pattern.

Honestly, I can’t say. You can’t understand a process by stopping it. The “sampling rate” that I can describe in text is also far too low for an accurate description.

Here’s what it feels like to me.

From initial position,
→ 2 frets the first note through finger flexion
→ 2 releases finger flexion while 1 frets the second note through finger flexion
→ the wrist “rocks” forwards, enabling the re-fretting with 2 with minimal finger flexion
→ the “rock” continues forwards, allowing 4 to fret the fourth note through a combination of wrist action and finger flexion
→ the “rock” continues forwards lifting 2 off the lower note
→ the arm moves to reposition 2 over the first note on the next string, “pivoting” on the 4.
→ rock back to initial position, releasing flexion of 4

I have to say, this is specifically the McLaughlin pattern. Other (2 1 2 4) cycles definitely involve the wrist rock, but I’d have to spend some time thinking about whether the coordination of the rock and the fingers feels similar.

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This has me a little confused. Let´s say I play the 132 cycle - then I´d fret the second note while still having the index finger on it´s original position/ fretted. On the last note of that cycle (2), I´d release both 1 and 3. Would you already release the index finger when fretting the second note (3)?
This idea applies to the other cycles too, whenever the index finger isn´t the last note of the cycle and higher fingers aren´t blocking a lower finger. Maybe I am just mistaken here and my approach is ineffective?

I think that kind of approach is something else than what you call “revealing”, it´s more of a “resting of a finger” in order to bring a little bit of stability into the fretting hand.

I never noticed the rocking motion when John McLaughlin plays that lick, that adds a whole new aspect… As far as I can judge it, Troy manages to do it without any rocking motion…?

That’s ok, this is all pretty confusing stuff!

If I’m not going to repeat the note played with the 1st, I would be releasing the 1st finger immediately after the 3rd frets. This gives the maximal available time for the 1st finger to reposition and fret the next note.

I wouldn’t say your approach is ineffective, but I’m quite sure it’s sub-optimal. We want to ensure that every finger gets the duration of two notes to release, relocate and fret the next note.

You aren’t resting. If there is enough force to keep the lower note fretted, you are actively engaging your flexors. In almost every context, there is a trade-off between stability and mobility.

Indeed it does. Fretting technique is more than “fingering.” The entire fretting arm is involved. I think the “rock” is a lot like the “roll”. Both movement patterns are situationally efficient, but neither is universal in application, and both carry a reset time.

@Troy and I have discussed this specific pattern privately. He might be willing to share his feelings on this.

Even without optimal mechanics, fingers can fret pretty quickly. From what I’ve seen, most of my students can tap on a table by alternating their 1st and 2nd fingers in the 170-180bpm range. In shorter bursts, Paco De Lucia could pick at about 210bpm alternating his 1st and 2nd fingers, and Eric Johnson and Shawn Lane have both played pentatonic patterns (2 notes per string) over 200bpm.

It’s not that you can’t play (2 1 2 4) fast without the rock, but the 2nd finger reuse is the limiting factor and will result in fatigue. Incorporating the rock lessens the demand on the 2nd finger and allows for greater recuperation.

The EDCs are another level entirely. They’re much faster.

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I tried playing the alternative cycles with that recommendation in mind and I think it made it easier. There does seem to be a certain tension somewhere in the index finger when I keep it on the fretboard.
There is one cycle (the forward cycle, 123), where I don´t think this applies though. In intense Rock, when Paul Gilbert demonstrates some 3NPS-patterns, you can clearly see that the fingers remain on the fretboard relatively long - or am I seeing this incorrectly?

Paul’s fretting hand sequences and mechanics are interestng and you can’t really discuss one without the other.

Paul’s fretting posture typically has a very pronounced slant or cant, with the tip of his index finger pointed towards his chin or even towards the bridge. This position best facilitates the use of (3 4) combinations, and with his hand at rest in this position, his fingers touch the strings but do not apply fretting pressure.

However, this position has the disadvantage of limited mobility and range of motion for the 1st finger, the edge of the neck impedes the free movement of the finger.

This isn’t wrong. The lines that Paul plays in this posture don’t really require much range and freedom for the 1st finger. Between repetitions, the index finger is usually relocated to the first note of the next position on the same string, or to the adjacent string in the same position.

Given the nature of his preferred posture and the lines he plays, large movements of the index finger are not typically required (which is good, because they aren’t available without shifting posture). Further, since the posture has the index finger in contact with the strings without fretting pressure, releasing the fretting pressure and returning to the resting position is very subtle. The movement need only be as large as the action height.

Paul doesn’t maintain his preferred position at all times. His fretting posture shifts when he plays string skipping sequences to allow more freedom for the index finger. He has also expanded his use of different finger combinations and has modified his posture to better accommodate those combinations. More on this later, maybe in another comment.

Allan Holdsworth also used a fretting posture with a pronounced cant/tilt for much of his playing (though of course not all). His vocabularly also involved particular movement patterns which are facilitated by this posture. In particular, the “side slipping” mechanic described by Timmothy Pedone.

You’re correct that in the slower speed demonstration, the fingers remain fretting the lower notes. However, when studying instructional footage we can’t take what we see in slower mechanics to inform our understanding of fast mechanics. We need to slow down the fast technique. Specifically, we need to review the playing at 13:21

Unfortunately, the rip on YouTube is poor quality. Slowing the video isn’t much help, the image just isn’t sharp enough. Remember, we’re looking for something subtle.

I have my own higher quality rip from the Intense Rock DVD. I’m taking that as my reference and watching the video in Transcribe! From what I can see, there is release of flexion with the 1st finger while the 2nd finger frets.

I’ve mentioned before that I have a much better understanding of the anatomy/physiology involved in fretting now than I did when I wrote th original Efficient Digital Cycles post.

Something I’ve learned, is that there is significant progressive variation among the population. Aside from what we can measure externally (relating to hand shape and size), there are muscles present in some individuals which are absent in others, different degrees of fusion/connection between structures, different outcomes from innervation and different mappings in the somatosensory cortex of the brain. I would suspect that these variations are not independent of fretting preferences, however this is largely untestable.

Paul seems to have signficant dependence between his 2nd and 3rd fingers. We can see that whenever he frets with the 3rd finger in (1 3 4) combinations, the 2nd finger flexes quite dramatically. There are possible variations which would be consistent with this.

I’ll write more on Paul’s changing preferences over time, and his string skipping posture later.

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More on the curious case of Paul Gilbert.

I’ve mentioned that Paul’s preferred fretting posture has a pronounced tilt/cant which facilitates (3 4) combinations. However, because the MPC joint of the index finger is behind the fretboard and the proximal phalange of his index finger is in contact with the underside of the fretboard, the range of motion and mobility of the index finger is limited in this posture.

In this posture, Paul typically plays repeating patterns where the index finger is typically relocated to the first note of the next position on the same string, or to the first note of the next string in the same position. Paul’s fretting posture and combinations are excellent in this context.

By using (1 3 4) combinations for whole/whole and whole/half figures, the low note in each figure is always fretted with the 1st finger and the high note in each figure is always fretted with the 4th finger. Paul almost always shifts on either the low or high note of a three note figure, and by using (1 3 4) instead of (1 2 3) for whole/half, there is never an incompatibility between Paul’s shifting strategy and his finger combinations. Moreover, using (1 3 4) for whole/whole simplifies Paul’s fretting sequences and helps to minimise the feeling of position shifting.

By shifting position, Paul simplifies his picking sequences. Essentially, it allows for an even number of notes on a string using 3 note per string scale shapes.

I mention to my students regularly that great players have synergies betwee their picking mechanics, fretting mechanics, fretboard figures and line construction. Paul’s playing on Intense Rock is an excellent example of this.

Greg Howe also used a similar approach for his picking patterns in his Hot Rock Licks instructional tape

However, Paul also plays a lot of string skipping patterns. Some of these patterns can be played with minimal deviation from Paul’s preferred fretting posture, because the index finger moves along the direction it points. Here’s a clear example:

And another. Notice the hyperextension at the MCP of the index finger on the high E string.

This is getting towards the limits of what Paul can do with this posture. For figures that require greater mobility and range of motion with the index finger, Paul adopts a different fretting posture. The wrist flexes, the MCP joints of the fingers come forward and lower. Here’s an example:

And another

In more recent years, Paul has begun incorporating (1 2 4) for whole/whole patterns more frequently, particularly lower in the neck. See here:

Notice the flexed wrist and the hyperextension at the MCP joint of the first finger.

It’s worth mentioning that Paul has also progressively incorpated more legato into his playing and that his guitar setup preferences have changed, moving to heavier strings and higher action to accommodate playing slide.

Now, let’s watch some Holdsworth. Notice the clear preference for angled fretting posture, and how enters more parallel posture when greater mobility is required with the index finger than MCP hyper extension provides:

Angled posture is awesome, and (3 4) is totally valid in many applications. However, it’s not without limitations. Gilbert is a tall man with large hands. Holdsworth was also very tall and had large hands. Vai is also tall with even larger hands.

Players with smaller hands, greater (3 4) length discrepency or greater anatomical fusion will have some trouble applying Gilbert’s approach in some contexts. For many, avoiding (3 4) in some contexts will yield better results. Shawn Lane consciously avoided (3 4), and it almost never appears in his playing. I’ve written about his playing extensively.

There are others – here’s Ritchie Kotzen.

Notice the preference for parallel posture and the clear discrepency in (3 4) lengths. Notice also that the slower demonstration uses (1 3 4) for whole/half (except on the low E string), and that the fast demonstration uses (1 2 3) for whole/half throughout.

If it wasn’t enough that he sings like Chris Cornell and writes great songs…

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Are you asking about the McLaughlin pattern and is the question how I do it? I don’t know, I haven’t paid attention to it. But I do know that I don’t like it because of the finger reuse, and similar patterns like what Shawn Lane does. I just avoid stuff like that in my own playing!

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I thought I remembered you saying you hated that pattern, but I wasn’t totally sure and I don’t like speaking for people.

I´ll be honest - I didn´t catch that in the videos, even when I slowed them down. The observation of the two general postures of the wrist (index finger slanted vs. not slanted) was very helpful. I think I subcounsciously do the same!

The clip from Greg How is a real gem, hadn´t seen that yet.

Do you have clips from SL and EJ playing the pentatonic scale at over 200 BPM?

That considered, I´d like to leave here that you played that lick darn well in the respective video.

It’s also important to remember the angled versus parallel fretting postures exist on a spectrum, from index pointed almost towards the bridge to past parallel withe the frets.

I’m trying to avoid the term “slanted” when discussing fretting posture, since “slant” is already in the CTC lexicon. I would prefer use to angled, canted, tilted, skewed, oblique, etc. My terminology is far from final, and there are some terms I want to change. For example, I don’t like that “efficient digital cycle” has the same initialisation as “extensor digitorum communis,” and I think it needs to be changed.

Greg is one of my favourite players. I’m not the biggest fan of the early neo-classical stuff, but I’ve always loved his later rock and fusion playing.

I don’t think I have video of Eric doing it, but I’ve definitely clocked some audio of him in that range. It shouldn’t be too hard to find a clip of Shawn doing it, I’ll have a look.

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I actually asked Paul Gilbert via Artistworks whether he keeps the lower fingers fretted when playing 3NPS-patterns (that question popped up somehwere above) and he told me he prefers having the “giant finger” (meaning a couple of fingers in line on the same string) in order to play vibrato more easily and also because it keeps other notes/ strings from ringing. He moves the supportive fingers to the next string when he needs to (I guess as opposed to having them “fling” in the air after fretting the next note on the same string).

Just as an addition to the “tilted index finger” aspect, Andy James does the same thing, I think in an extreme fashion, check e.g. the riff from 00:07 onwards.

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Absolute insanity! I forget how good Andy James is :exploding_head: