Staying in tune with a whammy bar

Gear
#1

This is maybe a doubly stupid question because I’ve played guitar forever and I’m also a luthier, but mostly acoustic and mostly jazz. I’ve never really played with a whammy bar.

I built a guitar a couple years ago I call a “super stang”, it’s a mustang sized and scaled guitar but I put in a JB/Jazz set of SD pickups and a Wilkinson tremolo. I haven’t played the guitar all that much but lately I’ve been using it a lot and I’m getting sounds I’m really enjoying with it.

I’m a big Jeff Beck fan and lately I’ve been leaving the bar attached at all times just to see if I would use it more. It’s been fun trying to figure out settings where it would work for me.

Anyway, long story short, it definitely seems to knock the guitar out of tune. I have a bone nut on the guitar. I’m not sure what my expectation should be, if I totally dive bomb the bar as low as it will go while playing a chord, should I expect it should come back in tune? It doesn’t do that necessarily. Could I optomize the nut or does a locking nut really become necessary to have stability?

I know this is a huge kettle of fish but I would love some basic advice. I don’t think a locking nut would fit on this guitar.

#2

Maybe it’s better than I thought. When I tuned it up after this the E string was sharp and the G string was flat. Maybe I could maximize the nut a bit. It definitely doesn’t stay perfectly in tune, but maybe this is pretty good without a locking nut?

Gets kinda stinky about halfway through. I feel like it has been worse than that sometimes but I never really tested it all that much.

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#3

It’s odd it seems to go out fairly randomly, it does maybe feel like a nut/tension equalization thing. I can do a lot of fucking with it and then once in a while it will go totally out but maybe it comes back most of the way.

I am not great about graphiting the nut slots but maybe I will now.

This is a pulling up test which seems to be somewhat worse than going down. I get that this isn’t really normal playing style, just seeing what it can do.

#4

Hi @Sully75. I’m also a huge Jeff Beck fan, I float my non-locking vibrato bridges and I have no issues with tuning stability.

If the nut slots are cut too tight, the strings will bind there and there will always be problems with return to pitch. The nut slots need to be cut to allow the strings to move.

You want to ensure that you take the time to string the guitar correctly. We want to minimise the amount of string on the tuner. The more string wraps the tuner, the more potential for slipping. You want one wrap over the string end and one wrap under, so that the two wraps pinch the string end and lock it in place. Locking tuners are not necessary, but they are a major quality of life upgrade and they make string changes much quicker.

Strings need to be stretched along their length when stringing.

String trees create binding points. If a string tree can be removed, it should be. If not, the string tree should be as high as possible to minimise the break angle over the nut. The usual bent plate type is probably the worst performer and the vintage “button” style is quite poor, too. A roller design works much better. If you decide to install locking tuners, I’d recommend staggered tuners, these can help to eliminate a string tree or allow for a string tree to be set higher.

The bridge must actually float, meaning that no part of the plate can be in contact with the body in the neutral position. There needs to be some range of pull-up. Dive only will never return to neutral.

On a two-post vibrato this is easy. On a six-screw vibrato, you use the two outermost screws to set the height so that the plate can lift up from the body slightly. The other four screws should be set a little higher, so as not to interfere with the pivot on the two outer screws.

The points of contact at the nut and at any string trees should be lubricated every string change. I use silicone lubricant for RC models.

https://www.racing-cars.com/silicone-diff-lube-pot-u1301

It’s cheaper and better than the stuff that’s marketed for guitarists. You also want to use this lubricant wherever metal contacts metal in the bridge assembly, Between the plate and the posts or screws, where the springs sit on the claw, etc.

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#5

+1 on locking tuners. They don’t fix tuning stability per se but are quite convenient and simplify a lot of variables. However, I’d suggest going for an “all short posts” set because the staggered ones might not give you enough break angle on the taller side. Also, string trees on the headstock play a part here.

My suggestion: just get a brass nut and follow this video:

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#6

I use that too! Michael Casswell recommended it on one of his Lick Library videos and I’ve been using it ever since. You’re one of the few people I have seen mention it.

@Sully75 Check out this video by Jim Gaustad

He talks about setting up a non-locking trem for playing Van Halen. I would also recommend Tom’s suggestion of moly grease.

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#7

That’s where I learned about it, too.

I bought that Lick Library DVD when I first got interested in studying Jeff Beck’s playing and wanted to go beyond using the vibrato just for “special effects.”

Michael Casswell was a fantastic player. I always liked this little jam he did with Joe Bonamassa.

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#8

Belated thank you for all of this! It’s given me a lot to think about (as a player and as a builder).

I hate to say that I’m hesitant to give up my string trees as having really perfect tone for playing chords and stuff is pretty important to me. And I really like the traditional Kluson split top tuners, my guitars generally stay in tune really well.

But I can see that most of the problems are coming between the nut and the tuners.

Are roller string trees at least a step up from crappy friction ones?

#9

Yes, especially when well lubricated. Even a string tree with a cylindrical shape will be much better, even if there’s no roller.

I think the best string tree design is the Vigier system.

The string runs through the ball end of another string. Since the retainer string is flexible, any friction is compensated for naturally by the movement of the retaining string.

It’s one of the cleverest designs I have ever seen.

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#10

I got the lube btw! I thought it was going to be the size of a chewing tobacco container but it’s tiny! Anyway, thanks for the suggestion!

#11

Great post from Tom, as usual.

I’m a cyclist, in the last ten years I’ve probably invested more time in that than in guitar, so I have a bunch of different “dry” PTFE lubricants around the house, and have occasionally put a dab of one of those on the nut slot as well. I have so much of it spare because I’ve switched from that to an ultra-efficient drip-application wax lube on my bikes, which takes some prepwork but is phenominal thereafter… and I AM a little curious how this would work on a nut:

But, so far, I’ve just used a dab of this on the treble strings, mostly to stop creaking, on a Graphtech TUSQ nut:

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#12

You don’t need much and you don’t need it often.

I bought two of them about 15 years ago. I’m still on the first container, thr second hasn’t ever been opened.

The container also fits inside a roll of PTFE tape!

20260130_225730
20260130_2257301920×2560 129 KB

I’m trying.

3 Likes
#13

My dear friend Jim’s video above on Van Halen “dive-only” non-locking vintage strat style vibrato setup is a good place to start.

I’ve done a more in-depth forum post on that subject that will help you if you are interested in that Van Halen style dive-only operation here: https://www.vhlinks.com/vbforums/threads/66343-Van-Halen-Fender-Vibrato-System-Use-amp-My-Tips-For-Keeping-It-In-Tune

In this thread, some of the things that have already been mentioned here are gone over, including the Galeazzo Frudua videos which are excellent. I can honestly say and prove that since I learned and applied these setup tips AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, I have learned Van Halen as note-for-note accurately as possible and I’ve seen specifically how his playing was designed to keep the Fender vibrato in tune. Basically, the left hand bending causes the G and B strings to go flat and diving with the bar causes the strings to go back perfectly in tune.

And by perfectly in tune, I mean perfectly in tune. I use Peterson strobe tuners to check and each string remains perfectly “caged” in the strobe tuner display. There is never a left hand bend on that isn’t “answered” with a vibrato bar dive to get the instrument back in tune in the entirety of the Fender vibrato tracks in the Van Halen catalog which is all of the vibrato bar tracks on the first and second Van Halen albums.

Floating vibrato setup is a COMPLETELY different animal, so that Jeff Beck setup is something that I have not worked out yet.

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#14

ok am I missing some guitar uses of PTFE tape?

#15

I wrap some PTFE tape around the threads of my Strat vibrato bars. It makes the bar hold firm in the block.

Any movement of the bar then results in an immediate change in pitch. There’s no feeling of “lag” that you can get with a loose bar, which allows for finer control.

There’s also no mechanical rattling or knocking when changing the direction of bar movement. This can result in the springs vibrating, which is a weird reverb like sound that can be heard through an amplifier.

The bar will stay wherever you put it, it won’t fall when you release it.

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#16

ah cool!

Does anyone use this Wilkinson tremolo? It genuinely seems to have accounted for a lot of this stuff. I have no particular attachment to strats or traditional Fender stuff though, I get that.

It has a little set screw on the arm, I think to set the tension on the arm rotation.

#17

The Wilkinson is a good bridge. I’ve played some guitars with them before, I’ve even set up a few, but I’ve never owned one.

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#19

Damn! I am ordering a lot of lube lately!

Not for guitars but anyway.

3 Likes
#20

Wilkinson produces some of the most reliable hardware on the market. Fair choice imho.

#22

Wilkinson was the first bridge I ever played that had that feature, but there are a bunch of good options on the market now with a similar design (I suspect the patent has expired of old age?). Gotoh was an early option, Floyd Rose now offers an aftermarket push-in bar option with the same design, and while I haven’t played one or seen one myself, I understand the American Fender 2-point trem also uses this sort of trem arm set screw these days.

I used a Wilkinson VS100 on my main Strat for years, in part because of this, before for some reason the bass strings just stopped intonating. These days both my Strats have Gotoh 510 trems, which have been rock solid.

@garbeaj - IMO - this is a REALLY important observation. Regardless of whether your issue is a guitar going sharp after bends, or flat after dives (or vice versa), you can - to a degree - “play” around this stuff exactly as you describe.

This shouldn’t be your first stop - or, at least, your only stop - when trying to suss out tuning stability issues, but it’s absolutely an important tool in the toolkit, and definitely something to try if you’re playing and hear a string a little out, before even reaching for the tuning peg.