Stroke-Beat Alignment + more

Technique Critique
#1

I recently watched Troy’s interview with Molly Tuttle and it was validating for me to hear how she plays downstrokes on the downbeats and upstrokes on the upbeats, since this is what I’ve been doing. I play jazz guitar (or at least I try) specifically at this stage jazz standards usually around 160-180 BPM, where I mostly play quavers. However, since the recent realisation that I string-hop and watching videos about pickslanting etc. I’m now aware that for quite a few players do not necessarily play in the way Tuttle does, which has something to do with the idiom of the player and their lines, but also their particular the kind of mechanics they employ - I mean, John McLaughlin plays with beat/stroke alignment on Cherokee but with the Guitar Trio he plays a lick where he starts on an upstroke even though it’s on a downbeat.
So anyway, ideally I’d have a technique where I can play downstrokes on the downbeat etc. since this is quite logical, and also works with a particular swing rhythm where the first note is longer (agogic accent) than the first (though not necessarily a dynamic accent). I’m aware it doesn’t work for everything - e.g. if you want to play an odd grouping like a triplet.

So I guess some sort of double-escape motion is what I’d like (who wouldn’t? :wink: ). The problem is that currently, while I am still working on my tremolo in an effort to excise the pesky string-hopping from my technique, quite a lot - if not all - of my improvising vocabulary is based on this stroke-beat alignment using string hopping. I’m aware that string-hopping is not necessarily bad, but it does tend to make my swing phrasing a bit choppy when e.g. I play the Donna Lee head at 180 BPM.

So does anyone have practical suggestions for my situation? Aside from keep working on tremolo etc. Also I’d like to keep that Bach G minor Presto from the first Violin Sonata in my repertoire, and learn to play it fast and fluidly - so I guess I ought to practice it fast, right? I can’t decide whether I ought to analyse how I should play it - what kind of two-way pickslanting etc. or just keep trying to play it at a high tempo, and instead let the technique choose me, rather than vice-versa. Same issues playing bebop heads etc. I welcome people’s thoughts on this post.

#2

Hey there! cool topic!

Two comments:

  1. If you feel like aligning beat and upstroke is weird… that’s good news :slight_smile: Unfamiliar territory is very good for learning new motions, as it will reduce the temptation to fall into old habits. So I’d do some attempts at speedy playing starting on an upstroke. May be weird at first but who knows, you may get out of your current plateau!

  2. Have you watched the new primer addition (link below)? The guitar-free tests we introduce there may be helpful to guide your search for an efficient motion. Keep also in mind you shouldn’t “practice” tremolo in the standard way with metronome etc. - you want to look for something that goes fast on day 1, and then refine from there:

Let us know how that goes :slight_smile:

#3

Yes, Tommo, aligning the downbeat with an upstroke feels weird when playing swing/shuffle, but when it’s straight notes, it’s not so bad.

I have watched the new primer addition and done some of the tests. I have been practising my tremolo fast from the first day I realised that that is what I should be doing. :wink:

I guess what much of my post was about is this process of refining - which seems to me to be quite a vast project, when it involves unlearning bad technique which has become a habit, which is what much of my original post was about, amongst other things. I guess I’ll come back when my tremolo is consistent and smooth.

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#4

Well as you hinted at this is a complex subject… but if you asked me to oversimplify:

just play the phrases / licks at a speed that is totally impossible with the technique you want to “unlearn”.

At first, of course, the notes may not be right. But the “contours” of the movements might be.

As @Troy pointed out in a different thread, as guitarists we are often obsessed with getting the notes right.

But the first step should be to get the movements right!

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#5

So here’s my (new) tremolo:

It’s either forearm or elbow motion, I can’t decide, perhaps someone could identify for me? I’d like to get a proper wrist motion going, because I’d like to be able to string cross, but whenever I do that it’s tricky not string hopping. I’ve done most of the tests of motions so I know I’m not incapable of decent speeds. Whatever motion it is I’m doing for tremolo is good for that but not much else… :frowning_face: Here is another one from a different angle:

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#6

Hey @James_W, sorry for the delay!

Form the second clip it looks like it may well be elbow, or elbow + a little wrist.

But taking a step back, I have the feeling you are holding back!

Did you have a chance to try the speed tests thatI linked? And if so, did you get results that were significantly faster than your guitar tremolo?

That may indicate you have to “let it go” a little more on the guitar, and just beast it and see what happens… don’t worry if you hit extra strings or if the timing fluctuates, first let’s get the speed going, then we’ll tame it :slight_smile:

#7

Hi Tommo, thanks for replying. Yes, I took the speed tests, here are the results:

Door Knocking: 210

Van Halen: 210

Al Di: 220

Elbow: 240

Forearm: 210

… all in the ballpark of what you’d expect. I’d say that these are just as much a mental boundary as much as a physical one - in other words, they represent just as much the limit of what I can sense myself going along with the metronome as how fast I can actually go - if that makes sense.

And yes, my tremolo, though not that fast, is mostly from the elbow. I know that one shouldn’t attach value judgements to particular motions, but I guess I can’t help preferring a wrist motion because that is how most my heroes pick. Also, I could be mistaken, but I don’t think cross picking would work from the elbow e.g. I’m not sure I could use it to alternate pick the main arpeggio riff from Mahavishnu Orchestra’s Meeting of the Spirits.

But: I accept that elbow motion is a valid technique for my tool box. I know beggars can’t be choosers, but if I had a choice in these things - which I do, don’t I? - I would like to get my wrist deviation technique to a good speed which is smooth and feels good. I think I can feel it happening a bit, and I feel like I ought to be able to do it, given I can strum semiquavers using a mixture of wrist and forearm at a decent tempo like 150. My strategy has been to adopt the pick-grip Troy advocates in the wrist-motion tutorial, use USX and rest stroke into the string below, in an effort to avoid string hopping. Not so long ago I watching the Olli Soikkeli video and marvelled at the ease of his double-escape motion - I guess this technique is all the more impressive in that it’s alternate picking double-escape which is so similar, yet so not similar to string hopping!

#8

True, to crosspick cleanly you have to add another joint into the mix, because elbow alone can only do DSX. But it seems to me that you already have another joint in your mix (wrist)!

So you could just try to play the arpeggio and see what happens! Fast & smooth is always what you are shooting for at first.

I myself am experimenting with some elbow-wrist crosspicking licks - as I am not yet good at 1nps lines. I can’t yet do it cleanly but I noticed the elbow joint is very nice for string tracking because it allows the hand to move quite far with little effort.