Struggling to increase Picado speed

Playing Technique
#1

Hi. So I’ve been messing around with picado on electric guitar, copying Matteo Mancuso’s technique as closely as I can, but I’m a bit stumped as to how exactly I’m supposed to increase speed. At the moment I’m stuck around maybe 110bpm 16ths, or a very sloppy 120bpm that I can only sustain for a couple of bars while frequently missing the string or not sounding the note clearly which obviously isn’t ideal. I’ve seen Matteo do 180bpm 16ths with I-M alternation, and even faster when he uses his ring finger as well, so I know it can be done quite fast on electric.

On a table I can tap about 150bpm 16ths, maybe 160bpm for a couple of bars, so I’ve tried the CTC method of “start fast and sloppy” but I find I can’t even make the note sound at all when I try that. I end up just tapping the string without it ringing out. Most flamenco players seem to advise speed bursts with a metronome, but I’m not sure if that’s an effective strategy as I’ve seen some CTC discussion debating the usefulness of bursts. They also stress the importance of making the smallest possible movement, but I can’t seem to consciously control the size of the movement at higher speeds. So overall, I’m not sure what exactly I should be doing to increase picado speed. If anyone has any experience with picado I’d greatly appreciate any insight into how you achieved fast I-M picking. Thanks.

#2

I M alternating is brutally difficult, I suggest checking out the Delcamp classical forum or a flamenco site. Honestly it was my frustration with fingerstyle technique that led me back to flat picking electric.

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#3

I’d asked @Troy about using his skills to crack this. He was interested, but I know he’s super busy.

I’m a semi retired amateur classical guitarist that studied formally at college. I’ve put tons of time into this and all I can guess, just knowing what we know about motion speed in general, is that if we’re not getting close to Paco De Lucia speeds, we’re simply doing it wrong.

Some day I plan to circle back to this. I’m currently having too much fun with with plectrum electric and steel string acoustic to take such a huge detour (plus I love not having to keep up with nail care). When I do get back to it, the approach I’ll take is to just start with as much footage as I can find of the very best. I’m not hugely immersed in that genre, but from what I’ve seen there are none better than Paco De Lucia and Grisha Goryachev. I’ll be paying attention to their hand position, curvature (or lack thereof) of their fingers, the range of motion they use, the path of the motion they make (e.g. are they making super squashed semi-circles, or is there some “trick”, like as one finger begins pressing the string down, prior to going through it, this allows the finger that just played to make a straight line returning to its prepared position, because the string is not in the way). Stuff like that.

If it’s about just “learning the motion”, it’s possible bursts help figure that. I’d ditch the metronome though. I think that will be giving you “some other thing to worry about”. You can always dedicate time to rhythmic accuracy after learning the motion.

I’d consider this dogma and ignore it. What’s most likely happening is the same thing that happens when Rusty Cooley hits his high gear - the motions are getting smaller just because they have too. The small motions aren’t creating the speed, they are a byproduct of the speed.

To me, this is problem #1. If a raw motion can’t go as fast as the one you’re trying to make, it’s not the right motion. I don’t think that drumming the fingers on the table is the same motion as picado. More realistic is allowing your fingers to dangle over the edge of a table and tap on the side part of the table top.

Something like this:

That’s more realistic as to how you’d be hitting the strings. Also, notice how I’m doing just index over and over, also just middle over and over. They can go pretty fast on their own so it may be a matter of being aware of that, then just getting things synced properly regarding how one finger releases as the other prepares.

Who knows if anything I’ve just said has any merit, but if what you’re currently doing doesn’t work, at least this is some other thing to try. I didn’t clock it but just trying something similar to a metronome, it’s above 180 bpm so something about that motion is “good”.

Anyway, good luck!

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#4

Thanks for taking the time to write this Joe.

That’s a really interesting hypothesis. Hopefully we’ll get to see some down the strings slow motion footage of an elite picado player at some point down the line to test it.

You’re completely right about this. I tried emulating actual playing form while tapping on an object and I could get 160bpm for almost 4 bars which is better. Interestingly I can easily tap 8th notes at 180bpm when isolating the index or middle finger alone as you did in your video, so it’s a case of somehow achieving synergy between both fingers to reach 180bpm 16th with both fingers, since the speed is there already, and then translating that to a string.

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#5

I’m definitely grasping at straws :slight_smile: I just think there’s some hiding-in-plain-sight thing present here that will be as obvious as Yngwie’s strategy of changing strings after upstrokes, if we’re fortunate enough to see it uncovered. If we can’t play as fast as them, they know an “easier” way to do it that we’re just not doing. That part I’m pretty certain on. It doesn’t help that any classical guitarist I’ve heard talk about this says the same stuff: “Play really slowly, don’t make any mistakes, play to a metronome and increase it very gradually, only when you are no longer making mistakes at that speed” etc etc.

BTW the 3 finger picado definitely has better speed potential. Check this out lol…crazy!!!

You can slow that down to 25% and it’s pretty accurate. Great hand sync and absurd speed. I’d love to see him under a magnet.

#6

I am ignorant about this but it seems really interesting. I tried to search for a few fundamentals and found this page; do you think it is mostly accurate? If so, I’ll actually read it! :thinking: If not, I’ll immediately delete it from this post so others don’t read it by accident.

Is picado similar to how people play bass guitar with fingers, etc., or do they use different underlying techniques? (I ask because eventually I’ll need to learn this, at least to some limited degree.)

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#7

Looks like solid advice to me. In terms of the main point of pressing the string into the soundboard, that’s crucial for great tone. Even free strokes, that’s what classical guitarists are doing. It gives a fuller sound and that’s not quite as apparent on electric or even steel string acoustic. He mentions the joint responsible for the motion being the knuckle (I’m certain he means the MCP joint, as that’s what all classical guitarists are taught to use).

I also like how it mentions if you just go faster little by little you’ll plateau at some point.

I’ll have to watch his footage closely. He’s not as freakish as Grisha but I’m sure any aspiring finger style player would be happy hitting 192bpm 16ths. I do notice some things I was expecting, like a slight collapsing in his tip joints. Not sure if that’s intentional or part of the string changing strategy.

Regarding speed in general in this style, I had a private lesson from a touring flemenco/classical guitarist when I was in college. She was a pretty big deal, she had a master’s from Peabody studying under Manuel Barrueco and he’s the best of the best. I’ll never forget, she told me with a super confident look on her face, followed by a slight pause, indicating I should be really impressed that she had “the ability to plays scales with 16th notes at 160 bpm”. Ha. Honestly for classical guitarists that is quite fast as the repertoire just doesn’t call for much fast scalar stuff. She was into flamenco though. I’m sure 160 is considered pretty far down the ladder of the speed capabilities. Unless Paco has just conditioned us to think “hey, it’s possible”…

I think it’s possible though. We just have to find “the trick”.

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#8

So cool :smiley:

Never had an interest in learning Picado before but always wanted to do the Billy Sheehan thing, gotta be the same mechanics right?

I know in his instructional video he explains he picks ring-middle-index repeat and even demonstrates some playing with the pinky as well!

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#9

I’m guessing no one plays exclusively 3 finger picado? I’m just assuming since Matteo and Grisha seem to play I M most of the time and only use 3 finger for their fastest lines, which tend to be scalar. Is it just too awkward to keep up the I M A alternation when mixing for example 2 and 3 notes per string, or playing a pentatonic 2 notes per string line?

Anyway, what I’m gathering is that the way to go is something along the lines of: find a motion that goes fast right off the bat(Maybe 180bpm-ish?) when table tapping while taking form cues from elite players like Grisha, from there use the ‘fast and sloppy’ route to try to transfer that same motion on the guitar, and maybe try speed bursts along the way since they might have some utility. Does that sound about right?

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#10

Right, strict I M is more common. The little bit I have messed with the 3 finger picado even doing things like Yngwie’s 6 note pattern are challenging since the right hand wanted to follow the left. Independence between the hands…

I guess what interests me is that since it has higher speed potential, would it make sense to start there and use it to help us learn something about the more bread and butter I M approach? Just thinking out loud there. It could be that it’s just a different operation that there isn’t any overlap between the approaches too.

Yep

#11

Yep, gotta be similar.

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#12

Damn, what a bass player.

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#13

does mancuso do the economy sweeping through the string when using the 3 fingers? or is it strict a m i traditional lean plant picado? if no one has anaylzed mancuso i will have a go at it.

a great guy for help on this is felipe coelho, find him on the youtube. he also gives private lessons, but also has a ton of free pretty thorough lessons on different topics.

the guy is a monster! :stuck_out_tongue:

here he is showing his gypsy jazz thumb rest stroke chops sheesh!

wish i had his picado speed both m i and a m i versions. he says that the gypsy jazz thumb alternate picking on the descend(i believe the descending phrase is around 7:50) it is easier to maintain a steady flow of the notes compared to how difficult it is to do it clean with picado.

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#14

Monster indeed, that thumb thing reminds me of Wooten.

What’s that other technique that’s like strumming on steroids, index down, thumb down, thumb up and repeat, golpe or some such, I’d really like to work on that.

A variation on it:

Cant seem to find a vid on just that.

Another crazy person:

I think I found what I was looking for, Rasgueado.

I think these strumming patterns one could get away with steel strings, but piccado must be harder?

I’d love to get a decent classical guitar. I lost a good one when I was very young and a lot more foolish :frowning:

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#15

I’ve analysed a few solos in slow motion, enough to deduce the general gist of his system, but I’m sure there are exceptions so take this with a grain of salt, but here is the general framework:

Ascending:
I-M alternation for 2nps, add in ring finger if there are 3 notes on any given string(although occasionally he arbitrarily sticks to I-M, even when the ring finger addition would be appropriate). He also uses A-M-I for 4nps chromatics at high tempos

Descending:
Almost always forgoes A-M-I in favour of I-M with index finger economy when possible except at the highest speeds. He seems to avoid descending A-M-I in general except at his highest speeds, although I have seen him do 4nps descending with A-M-I, and mixtures of 3nps and 2nps descending with A-M-I. For example in his Technical Difficulties cover instead of doing the descending scalar sextuplets with 3 fingers which would theoretically be much easier, he does the ascending 2 string portion with 3 fingers, then completes the descending portion with I-M only. So no A-M-I with any economy as far as I know since he very rarely does it descending, but I could be wrong.
Edit: Oops, I was wrong. I just double checked and he does do index finger economy for some A-M-I fragments, but no ring or middle finger economy. He also does use A-M-I when descending, often mixed with I-M with index finger economy, or sometimes purely A-M-I for descending scalar lines when possible.

There’s also a video someone shared on another post called “Matteo Mancuso game changer fingerstyle” which is worth a look.

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#16

That almost seems detrimental I would choose this system as you have a bookmark point of where to go next. The rest/lean is your bookmark to guide you as you learn(engineer) new cross string phrasing/sequences/fragments/etc picking/fingering pathways. This is similar to how the gypsy jazz thumb/plectrum pick works. furthermore you retain the engine motion of always doing a,m,i even though you are crossing strings the motion remains. He doesn’t go into the economy picado until about the half way point of the video. I didn’t time stamp because you should watch this entire video, he has some amazing insight into picado technique that will be highly beneficial to you as you learn.

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#17

Does it have to just be Picado? I messed around with just jamming around with some ideas and came up with some stuff on the fly that could be probably developed into some “okay” stuff? PMI and PAMI and heaps of legato, although I can do a pretty dang fast tremolo (For me) with either of those two and trust me, I suck - if I can do it anybody can! Heck, the OP is probably already much better at this than we might think!

After I recorded this video I messed with some just 2 finger stuff; Billy Sheehan is a master of 2 and 3 finger quickness… Maybe he’s worth checking out also?

Anyways, yes it’s terrible, and yes I’m cool with it. :grinning:

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#18

All I heard was lots of pretty cool playing!

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#19

Okay, Joe! Thanks so much - always so kind, but the truth is that this is my playing ability minus any regular practice or technical development. So, it could likely be a lot faster, better connection to time clock, rhythmic control and heck, even note choice in this situation is heavily influenced by ability or lack thereof!

I posted it because I am a massive music nerd, and to maybe justify/clarify any opinions I might have on the posted topic. Y’know, show where I am coming from!

So some observations on fingerstyle; Matteo is bloody awesome, as is Billy Sheehan, as was Paco DeLucia. Victor Wooten can do some crazy fingers stuff, Steve Bailey as well. Les Paul, Jerry Reed and Chet Atkins are interesting as well and of course, Jeff Beck! Check these guys out, all of them as well as the No name YouTube people mentioned above might have a bit of information that might help.

My .002 on fingers playing- keep in mind that I am nobody, these are just my experiences.

  1. 2 fingers, 3, or 4 - playing with them going from MI or AMI or MIP or AMIP or PMI and PAMI flows the best, and for me is more conducive to speed.

  2. I don’t have nails - I use finger pads, and that is likely quite a bit slower. But growing out my nails is impractical for several reasons…

  3. My fastest tremolo PAMI is 16ths at about 180 - I tested that last night after I made the video. Fingers are really light, just brushing the strings. It’s a different tone, lots of harmonics but it could be harnessed to do some crazy stuff I bet. For me having that thumb in there allows me to play quicker stuff, AND have access to a mute so that I can throw heavily muted legato in there for another flavour…

  4. My tone in that video has way too much gain - half that in regards to the distortion probably would sound just as rocking…

  5. It takes time. The very disciplined classical and flamenco guys built their abilities over time, same with Billy Sheehan and Victor Wooten, Paco and Matteo etc. Trial and error over time…

  6. Okay, there IS a trick, and for two fingers or 3, it’s like you don’t separately articulate them, the two fingers move as one, however they are positioned slightly apart so they “land” one after the other; kind of a “reverse flick”. It will have a real dotted 8th to 16th feel with 2 fingers, and 8th 16th 16th feel with 3. Doing it as tremolos won’t take long to develop, you can even practice it on a table top. Using it on various different strings and varying the rhythm can be a challenge though…

  7. There’s an inner voice that will tell you that “hmmm this feels like I am on to something” or “$&@%! “ or “I need help!!!” anyways, listen to that voice - it’s always right.

Okay, I hope some of that is helpful- again, I am no expert - you can tell by my playing! And some of these findings may simply be just due to me not having any formal classical/flamenco training. I think if one can just keep at it, and try to make music while optimizing along the way then everything should work out!

#20

See to me, nails make things more challenging to play and slow me down. They improve the tone (subjective, but at least in classical/flamenco almost universally accepted, less important in electric and steel string acoustic though IMO), but there is a very specific place you have to catch the string. It’s the perfect combination of flesh and nail and the margin of error is pretty tiny. Not enough flesh, the note is thin sounding. Too much, it will be dull and won’t project. I think it’s for this reason that we’ve never (that I’m aware of) here anyone in the classical circles say “just gun it, clean it up later”. Flailing our fingers as fast as they go would likely produce tones that are very inconsistent. They’d see that as very bad (and it is) BUT, we know better now. We know that “learning a motion” is one thing, and the contact point accuracy I mentioned is totally separate from that.

Again, I think if we’re trying to do this picado outside of flamenco/classical, sans nails, it probably doesn’t even matter. I mainly mention it because I had no clue about this until I studied classical. I thought they were just “fingerstyle players who happened to have nylon strings” but there’s a lot more to the technique than that.

To me this is highly interesting. The last time I worked on classical tremolo I took this approach and I got great results. I think there is a speed, likely in the 16hs at 130-ish bpm where doing the fingers more “individually” is no longer fast enough. And to put this into perspective:

I don’t know that I’ve heard any well trained classical guitarist play a tremolo that fast. And this by no means indicates I doubt you. I fully believe you and that gives further weight to the thought that we should all expect these high speeds from ourselves if we’re doing the motion correct.

Back the “unit” approach - I’ve wondered in that’s possible for the strict I M alternation or maybe more importantly, if that’s how the masters are achieving these high speeds. Part of me thinks “well that could very well be the secret sauce” and another part of me thinks “nah”. If you watch this at 25% speed and focus on the little muted “warm up” he does on the low E, to me it looks like his fingers are individually extending and not just sort of “opening and closing a fist in sequence”

And that “extension” is not even what I’d expect. The people who I’ve heard talk about this say that they are just “releasing the tension” but I feel like there I’m seeing a “flicking” motion to cause the extension. Who knows if I’m right about any of that though.

Anyway, I don’t have the answers lol! I think to fully crack it though, we have to consider all possibilities.

@Scottulus I think you’ve shown us enough that someone could easily get a high speed style going from just those motions. It may be a matter of them finding patterns that “match” sort of like single escape playing. I don’t think crossings matter quite as much fingerstyle but just keeping a PAMI synced with moving fretting fingers may dictate we have a core bucket of licks that’s easy with that. Well done :wink:

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