Hey everyone! I first saw Troy Grady’s videos around 3 years ago and was so happy to see someone that really broke down the movements needed for 3nps playing so bought the pickslanting primer. I thought “finally, something I can really practise and get down”. However, while I feel like my technique has improved somewhat, I just cannot get down 2 way pickslanting - specifically, when inside picking, and primarily when descending. It just feels so unnatural.
I can (and have been able to for years, even before the 2 way pickslanting stuff) outside pick 3nps stuff on repeat at very fast speeds (that is, say, DUD on the B string and UDU on the high E). I can probably do this consistently around twice as fast as I can do the inside picking version (DUD on the high E then UDU on the B). But something feels so unnatural and uncomfortable about doing it inside. I don’t know about others but for me, in the “Conquering the scale” clips, I actually find “Descending 12” far easier than “Descending 6 - the scale chunk”. Something about repeating that inside picking motion just feels nasty. I also feel like my pickstrokes have significantly less power when inside picking.
Can anyone give me some tips on two way pickslanting that really gave them that “Eureka!” moment, or what action they took (mentally or physically) to finally get it down?
Is it any better if you do 5 or 7 notes per string instead of 3? I found that helped me a bit to start getting a feel for the motion but I still share some of your discomfort with this.
How about if you descend 3nps starting on an upstroke? Feel any better?
Yeah I have tried with 5 and that does certainly help as you don’t have to do the switch quite so quickly so maybe practising that a little more would be helpful. Descending 3nps starting on an upstroke is way easier for the descending 6 pattern but that’s because at that point it’s outside picking, which I don’t struggle with at all.
I think the reason inside picking is so much more difficult is that the next string is in the opposite direction to the direction your pick is currently moving in, so after the downstroke, your next upstroke has to be quite a bit bigger than your previous one while you’re also trying to switch your pickslant.
my story is similar to yours in a sense. I saw the pickslanting stuff 4 years ago and it made a lot of light bulbs go off and I realized why I struggled with certain stuff. for instance im the opposite of you. I simply could NOT do the ‘Paul Gilbert lick’ (DUD on B then U on E) Just simply couldnt get it to work
The CTC stuff helped me realize WHY and I had SOME improvement in my playing right away and in my mind everything was great and I was on my way. I started to think of myself as a great player simply because I mentally understood the concepts
Well at some point I became more realistic about my actual abilities and i realized that while I “knew” some of the concepts, I was a LONGGGGGG way from having them grooved into my fingers
This is a thing we must FEEL for ourselves. Watching a video wont do it. Reading someones text wont do it. Those things only get us to the point to where we can experiment in the right direction until we find the mechanic that works for us and we GROOVE THAT FEELING!
Unfortunately there are literally dozens and hundreds of those small unique movements we need to master. This is why we can be good at some stuff but suck at other stuff. Well if you can already play some stuff good then u are halfway there!
so lets start here:
ok, first off, you didnt indicate whether you are a dwps or uwps type of player. from your comments I am going to assume you are a dwps guy. if you were an uwps guy then DUD on the E going to U on the B probably wouldnt be so bad.
So I will give you 2 pieces of advice:
for me, the “upstroke going to a lower (thicker) string” is as much about “tracking” as it is about the actual pick stroke.
Do you know what “string tracking” is? essentially its whatever methods you have for how you approach picking on different strings. if you do a scale across all 6 strings, you have to move or change something as u go from the low e to the high e lol. Some people move the whole arm from the shoulder or maybe change the forearm angle from the elbow. Some people have the arm sort of locked in one place and therefore they have to change the angle of the wrist. I call that ‘clockfacing’. Their wrist is at one angle on the low e and a totally different angle on the high e.
So (for me anyway), when I go from D on the e to U on the B, its as much about tracking as it is about making an actual pickstroke. Sometimes I think about it like a swimmer when he changes direction and he kicks off the end of the pool. if I pick D on the high e I think about kicking off the end of the pool and it kicks me (tracking) down to the b string
Think about it. What if you were going to sweep this lick and you were commited to pick D on the high e?
yeah thats a lick but do you see how the movement from E to B is the same as when you are sweeping?
So to me the inside change from E to B must include a tracking element along with the picking element.
as you correctly stated, its different from the outside movement. When you go DUD on the B and you want to go to the E…you are almost there already! Since you were already going the the right direction, all you have to do is slightly extend the stroke and/or add a very slight string track to it and you are there.
Whereas if you go DUD on the e and you want to go to the B…uh oh, that last D was going AWAY from the b string so you have farther to go. Answer: add a little more string tracking to the stroke
or like Troy said, picking isnt one thing, its many many things combined.
the actual slanting. Im assuming you are a dwps guy and you say you are struggling with 2 way slanting. okay, the answer is pretty simple. LEARN TO UPWARD SLANT. lol
Seriously. even if you want to use dwps as your normal orientation, do some work with uwps just so its no longer “weird” feeling
As a matter of fact, if we look at my story we see a key to help you. I simply could NOT do an upstroke going to a higher string. I dont remember the exact chronology but at some point I started fooling with uwps. The thinking was “well I have to be upward to cross from b to e so let me just START off upwards so half the work is done”. At first it was really weird but after a while it felt better…even to the point where someone could have looked at me and said I was an uwps guy
I try to be more or less neutral now. Or even better, I try not to even think about it lol.
So if I were you id start experimenting with uwps. at first you can just do tremolo picking etc. Then maybe you can play with “picking around the string”. Thats what i call it when u tremolo pick while gradually switching back and forth between uwps and dwps. Its really freaking awkward at first but after a while youll find different ways to do it…fingers or hand manipulations etc.
Then simply start doing some one way descending 6 stuff, starting on downstroke, but using uwps.
instead of “omg, after i pick the last note on the e string im going the wrong way and I have to change my slant too! its too much!” yeah I agree. so instead, since you know youll want to be uwps as you go to the b string, start working your way into uwps before that point lol. This is why I think you should do some basic uwps work to start with.
Dont be afraid to microscopically look at the movements as you try to figure them out. you dont have to clear the strings by an inch lol.
lets isolate the problem area:
E—12----------
B--------15–13
So you are going to pick DUD on those 3 notes. It might help to sort of think of the 15 on the b as simply being in the way of the pick. You are going to pick D on the e string, then D again on the 13 on the b string…in the meantime the 15 on the b just happens to get in the way of your upstroke. Think “how can I pick D on the high e then get my pick in place super efficiently to pick D on the 13 on the b string?” Dont think of it as 3 separate events.
@JonJon Thank you so much for this detailed response. There is a lot to parse there but I do have a few comments (primarily to add to the conversation):
I actually always used to be an UWPSer - until I started watching CTC. It took me a long time to get used to DWPS. I kinda switch between what I am primarily so I don’t really know what’s “home” anymore. One thing I will add is that while I was an UWPSer, I had a bit of a crutch - I basically needed to always have my thumb (the side of the end of my thumb, right next to the pick) right on the string, which I became dependent on. That’s pretty much gone now.
I am aware of string tracking and before I found Troy’s videos I was basically obsessed with working that out being the key to my alternate picking across multiple strings. I couldn’t decide what was best. They all have their advantages and disadvantages:
– Clockface is easy to position your hand in the first place as you’ve basically got one pivot point, but certain strings can feel awkward and I imagine on guitars with more strings it becomes impossible.
– Forearm is super neat and can be trained to be very accurate, I imagine. The only disadvantage I can see is that your pick gets closer to the bridge as you ascend meaning you either have your pick too far towards the headstock when you’re on the low strings or too close to the bridge on the high strings
– Using the whole arm gives you super consistent pick position across the strings and would be totally ideal - it used to be what I considered the holy grail of string tracking, however I personally cannot do it without getting shoulder pain.
Sometimes I think about it like a swimmer when he changes direction and he kicks off the end of the pool.
I love this idea, I’d never heard anyone mention it before but I actually toyed around with this a couple of months back. Unfortunately it wasn’t working for me but maybe I just invested too little time in it.
Part of the problem with all this is that you do end up investing a lot of time in experimentation, which is great, but can often feel like you’re going down the wrong path and that feels like wasted time (even though really, going down the wrong path still isn’t wasted - you still learn something).
Anyway, I will take your advice on board and try to reintroduce that push off feeling again - I have a feeling that could be very helpful. I’m also going to move to 5 notes per string for a bit as @Prlgmnr suggested just to give my brain a bit more time to get that feeling.
To be honest I think a lot of this is just a massive mental block - I’ve had periods before where I’ve suddenly just got it and I can play sextuplets across 6 strings at 140bpm (for a brief period) and other times where I struggle to do them at 90. It’s a bit weird but sometimes I find the mid speeds more difficult than faster speeds - maybe that’s just my brain telling me to stop being analytical for a bit and just go with the flow.
What if you pretend that none of this exists and just try to play as smoothly as you can, while making no attempt to “do” any particular string changing motion, regardless of string change?
Meaning, one route is to try not to overthink this stuff. You’re saying you have smooth motion even on phrases that switch strings via outside picking. Presumably you also have smooth motion on single-string phrases. Is your hand synchronization on point, where the pick-note connection is perfect most of the time on simple repeating phrases like this?
If so, there really should be no reason to have any dramatic difference in feel based on moving from one string to another. And perhaps just ignoring string changes would be a good way to get into this mindset.
Think about it: even if you were to forget about string changes completely, in the absolute worst scenario only 50% of the string changes might have some noise to them. And I say “might” because anything from muting to actually getting over the string will happen to improve that hit rate.
Try to get smooth motion happening regardless of string changes. Allow any noise to happen. If you can’t get to a point where you can just move smoothly all the time, with good hand synch, then you can’t do anything fancier than that. And even if/when you do, any change in your motion that you do eventually decide to make should be so insignificant as to have almost no feel at all.
its way more of a mental concept or conceptual thing than an actual physical thing. another way to look at it is “tag your it”. You are hitting that high e note but you arent staying there long to think about it lol
Thanks @Troy for the advice! I’ll certainly take this on board too - I definitely have a tendency to overthink and overanalyse things, and it probably explains why I sometimes find going faster is easier than medium speed stuff - because my brain doesn’t have a chance to analyse what I’m doing and I just have to go with the flow. It certainly feels like it’s mostly a mental block.
It is quite difficult for someone like me (I’m a software engineer so maybe that tells you something about how my brain works) to effectively switch off that part of me and just go with the flow, but I absolutely think that is something that I need to do. I imagine that is how most virtuoso guitarists got the technique they did - they weren’t thinking about specific motions when they learnt this stuff, they just kinda felt it and it eventually worked. As I’ve seen you say before in your videos, a lot of these people weren’t really aware of what they were doing, they just naturally felt their way to achieving the results they did, which is why there are so many different ways to achieve the same result.
its way more of a mental concept or conceptual thing than an actual physical thing. another way to look at it is “tag your it”
Yeah I figured you meant it as more of a mental “feeling”, and ultimately if you can get it to a point where you can feel the right movements and it feels natural to you, you’re going to achieve the results you want. To me, when I do outside picking string changes, I don’t even think about it, it just feels natural and easy, so I hope that one day I can achieve that same natural feeling for inside transitions too.
You don’t have to “switch off” anything! If you prefer, there is an algorithm here, all you have to do is implement it. The algorithm is:
Choose a picking motion for the escape type you are looking for. For example, if you want to play upstroke escape aka “dwps” lines, you can choose wrist, or wrist + forearm. You can find our current breakdown of these possibilities here:
Test the motion by going fast on a single string. You have to start that way because unless you’re going fast you won’t really know if it’s working. At slow speeds, there is less useful feedback by “feel” of whether something is correct.
If you can’t go fast at all, or you can’t go fast with smoothness, then something about the motion isn’t right. Change something about your form and try again. If you get any moments of speed / smoothness, it’s working. Generally, new motions are fast in fits and starts, with moments of smoothness feeling, and then moments of “damn I lost it”. Try to recreate the moments of smoothness across repeated attempts.
Once you can produce smoothness reliably, work in a simple repeating phrases for the left hand, like the Yngwie six-note pattern, where you can focus on hand synchronization. You can slow down a little for this, but not much. Keep it in the “realistic” speed zone where physical feedback is most significant. If not all the notes are lined up totally correctly between pick and frets, that’s ok, employ accents and keep trying across a range of different fretboard patterns.
And so on. Again, you’re not switching off your analytical mind. You’re applying it to this process.
Well, I know what I’m doing in my free time for the next few days! Thanks again, I’m looking forward to applying all this and I like that you came up with a way to do this while still playing to my analytical tendencies
I’d work on just getting some Downstroke Escape style licks down so you’re body can learn how to make that motion fast before you try worrying about 2WPS.
One thing I definitely don’t do is swipe - I actually have to really think about it to swipe. However, your comment did get me thinking about this and I’ve realise I don’t really have a problem at all getting over the string I’m currently on - that’s fine. The problem I have is actually playing the next string without jamming up - I lose a lot of power when I hit the next string when inside picking. And you are absolutely correct - I really do need to go back to practising my descending downstroke escape licks. In fact this discussion has given me a few useful insights into my technique and my attempted implementation of 2WPS:
I was practising it in a very robotic, strictly DUDr way. That is, I didn’t do the rotation until the final downstroke - as @JonJon alluded to.
My tracking is off when inside picking, which is something else he mentioned. My inside string change upstroke after the downstroke felt incredibly jolty because my wrist was overcompensating, I think, which is why I get that feeling of being jammed or stuck when I hit the next string.
I wasn’t really focusing enough on the feel and the flow of the whole thing, but more very strict physical mechanics that just don’t feel natural.
After being made to realise these things, I checked out some Troy’s clips again and realised that when on a string, his hand is always preparing for the string change from the very first stroke. The pickslant change happens across 3 notes and I believe his hand is also gradually working its way to the next string, which is why it flows so well. I think mentally I was treating the 6 note chunk as 2x 3 note chunks that felt distinctly separate, which also meant the timing of the notes was uneven. When looking more closely as how I’m so easily able to make outside changes, I realised that I already do this - I’m always working my way to the string change, but not for inside changes.
A cool thing that I did notice when playing around with this is that if, say, you’re playing 3 notes on the high E string then 3 on the B string, as your hand gradually tracks towards the B string, the pickslant change actually happens naturally as the additional angle you need to hit the high E string causes your pickslant to switch to downward escape without consciously having to do it.
Anyway from all this I have a plan on how to tackle this once and for all:
Do more single string stuff where I play around the string (as in, pick fast but gradually alter my pickslant so I can successfully play fast on a string when the pick is at a variety of angles).
Focus on a load of downward escape licks, particularly when descending, in order to sort out my tracking and make this particular transition feel natural
When doing 2WPS, practise it in a way that flows, always thinking about the next string.
Treat the 6 note chunk as an actual 6 note chunk rather than 2x 3 note chunks.
remember that most of the really good and really fast 2way slanters arent using a HUGE amount of slant. Its starts to get more subtle because you dont have to clear the strings by some huge margin
Once you have some mechanical ideas to work on, it alllll comes down to practice methods. We are what we practice.
Me personally, I would spend at least a certain % of my time playing really slowly and just eyeballing that inside string change to start to groove it. and of course you will mix that in with faster playing.
But to start with id deffo just start training the motion you need very slowly and purposefully. Think of it as drilling a pilot hole for a larger drill bit to come. Start to establish those new neural pathways
Lately I have REALLY been influenced by this book about piano practice methods. This chapter on “post practice improvement” is monumental IMO. When I read it, I realize how its possible that many of us practice for thousands of hours yet only progress slowly.
Your body adapts to whatever you throw at it. If you practice sloppy, you get better at being sloppy. If you practice 50% sloppy and 50% clean…whats the progress going to be?
So going by this books advice I feel like I can learn almost any new thing in about 3-4 days. In other words I can take his advice and do a new movement slowly and without mistakes for maybe 150-200ish reps. I dont necessarily need to do an hours worth that first day or two. The next day it WILL feel easier. Just let the process work. The body will adapt. Do the same thing again the next day. It gets better and smoother still.
Monitor tension closely. once tension and straining creep in, you are trying to hard to force things and u need to back off
Then you start speeding it up and eventually pushing your top speed some etc. I do love his point though about always finishing off on a smooth and perfect version of the exercise(s). Dont do like most of us and finish off with some sloppy fast reps lol.
An amazing book with many nuggets! Ignore the piano only lingo like HT (hands together) and HS (hands seperate) etc
hi, I havent read all the answers here because I dont have the time now, but I have a solution for you, I have had exactly the same problems you describe here and I literally had my Eureka moment two weeks ago; I only need to find some time to record my examples on iphone and upload on youtube, but liike I said it solved all my technical problems that I have had since Troy solved my string-crossing problems with pick slanting, and I agree that you can use pick slanting and it doesnt give you the 100% solution for technical briliance, it does solve the biggest problem, but the remaining 10% is somewhere else, so stay tuned, I should be able to write more at the weekend
This is absolutely right and I have been trying to find the appropriate place to bring this up, to me this means that the motions for allegro is NOT the same as the motions for presto and that it can actually be much harder because there is more time for an error.
I recently was working on open string trills and tried riding the picking by placing the fret hand finger on a string as if I’m muting but really trying to follow the literal vibration of the string being picked back and forth so the sync problem(between hands) disappears and it’s actual easier at fast speeds and harder to do at slower tempos. The motion is essentially two hand tremoloing.
I finally understand what chunks mean now, though I would use the term gesture or articulation. Alan Watts pointed out that the mind is reductive and always sees things “separate” whether they really are or not.
I think this is the way Beethoven composed by making small adjustments in the repeating figures(usually in fours and sixes) and changing one or two notes to outline the harmonic movement, but in fact the key is “chunking” in this lingo.
I’m not sure when I’ll have time to upload a video and I’ve always found making videos from a useful angle to analyse my pickslanting is practically impossible for me, otherwise I would upload one.
I look forward to seeing what you came up with, I’m sure it will be very useful! After all the responses I got previously, I’ve been doing a lot of work on this myself as it’s helped to identify some specific areas I need to work on such as string tracking and also the way I switch my slant. It’s actually all coming along fairly nicely, but as with any time you take a new approach to something, progress is somewhat slow right now. However I feel like I’m getting closer, and I had something yesterday that felt very much like a “eureka!” moment, but whether or not it actually was I won’t know until I’ve had some time to practise what I found out.
One thing I will add is that I’ve changed the way I pick. I have always found that I naturally pick with a downward escape as I’m most comfortable as an RDT, but since discovering Troy’s videos initially I spent a lot of time trying to fight that to get DWPS working. I realised recently that I need to work more with my natural inclinations as I feel much more comfortable like that (and am perfectly able to do upward escapes).
One thing I will say: I think Down Up Rotate applies more to natural upward escape/DWPS players as they’d naturally start picking a string with upward escape pickstrokes, only to change after the fact. I think if you’re natrually a downward escape/UWPS player, you’re used to starting with the escape type you already need. Therefore, I think if you’re an upward escaper, you do the rotation towards the end of the 3 note cluster, but if you’re a downward escaper you’re used to being prepared early, so you actually do most of the rotation on the first stroke of a new string (e.g. if going from 3 notes on the high E, when you next hit the B, you do Rotate(up)-Down-Up.
