Styles of pick grip - Lots of photos

[CARYCHILTON]

I am BACK! Good to be back. I started at the beginning, Volcano video 1, lesson 1 since it has been about 4 months? So I have noticed Troy’s Grip is markedly different than mine. I love Troy’s accuracy and particularly fluidity across the strings, which is why I eagerly paid a year membership to learn this! I took lots of photos to speed my points up as well save LOTS of ambiguity in using words to describe what we can see!

The reason I am bothering revisiting pick grip with this new thread is that I have noticed quite a few new things and I wish to address them pointedly because when I COMPLETED the singe string 6 note series, I had no trouble with evil eye and the other examples to speed and accuracy. Soon as I began the DWPS, all my accuracy and meter was all over the place. SO, BEFORE even addressing my ISSUES with DWPS at Grady speed, I want confirmation and or help with different picking grips as my foundation… WHY start more bad habits??? I am already trying to UNLEARN a ton of them as it is. So, thank you for your understanding peeps!

First of, studying Troy’s pick grip ( reading he uses jazz III XL shape) - I have tried to replicate what I have seen in his videos with a Jazz III XL shape (slightly smaller then a Fender H pick as most here know I am sure).

Ok so I might be a little taller and bigger than Troy, but not by a lot and to replicate the relief / amount of tip sticking out there is barely enough pick to grip! Troy also told me that he has his index on the backside, at an angle and not much further past the thumb. So, I don’t know how he hold the pick without dropping it and or having the TIP of the pick FIRM and solid on the strings. ANyone???

Ok so below is more typical of how I hold the pick, where it feels solid. But you will notice that on the backside, my index curls.

Another photo is trying to also replicate Troy’s grip which I see the edge of the pick roughly meets where the thumb nail ends. However, you notice that there is much less tip of the pick exposed. I took photo after the evil eye riff. With this grip, I feel the pressure of the thumb against the pick to be roughly around the joint. In the past, I really tried this. What I found that for single string, meter’d playing at fast speed, but not the top end, this grip felt easier to sustain the loop’d riff in meter! Less fatigue. However, it was kinda useless for me picking across the strings. Anyone else feel the same?

The next set of photos is a variant, basically Troy’s grip with fair amount of thumb tip exposed, trying expose as much pick as possible while feel secure at the tip, but the index fingers is STRAIGHT, and angled. The ‘FEELING’ is that it is down the middle of the pick, as Troy communicated to me. However, the backside shows it is on an angle, but at the median.

This next photo is what looks like in practical use, without cocking the wrist up like Michael Batio. Here the index is straight as I can get it for functionality and the ‘feeling’ that of the hand being raised or slight extension of the wrist. Here I had flexed the thumb to spring and securing the tip of the pick for speed otherwise it felt loose and or the tip shifts forward (see photo after that).

These two show the basic angles I am playing at

In truth, I usually find after playing fast that the tip is barely exposed and slightly shifting forward.
I don’t know if anyone else finds that or has even bothered to go to the trouble of analyzing their grip and pick position/relief as I just have. But, hopefully someone as well as @Troy can weigh in with some serious analyzing.

Two more insights if I may: I have tried to copy the Michael Batio technique (his speed is another story!) to reasonable imitation. I do find it is faster than my normal grip and technique. I find requires a REALLY extreme sharp angle, cocked wrist, pinky and ring lightly pressing the guitar body ( as he in fact does) and almost a push/pull motion. So, the PICK GRIP for this Batio technique that seems to be needed is choking up on the tip and forward shift as below with the index finger straight and nearly flat ( anyone find this true for them?)

Last, I think I am rotating my thumb which can make quite a difference on the amount of tip exposure. Pressure on the top of the thumb vs the bottom vs middle. Does any of this matter when DESCENDING 6 note pattern on the DPWS reaching 5th and 6th string? ( my trouble area…)

[CARYCHILTON]

If no one… @Troy

BUMP

[Troy]

Hi! Thanks for the great shots!

It sounds like you may be asking a variety of questions here, and I’m not 100% sure how I can help. But in general, I would say that although pick grip is important, it’s not that there is any specific grip required for the techniques we discuss. It’s more that different grips affect arm position, and that makes things feel and work differently, but in all cases you can combine most grips with most of the movements we cover.

As an example, I have been using side-finger grip in recent clips like the Two-Minute Crosspicking tutorial posted elsewhere on the forum. I do this periodically to expand my vocabulary of things I know how to do, and also to understand how different grips affect the movements. The number of possibilties quickly gets high, but what I can tell you is that they almost all work.

In general, also, if you have not yet established a picking motion, I would do that next. Our best description of the different options, for the time being, is the live broadcast we did here:

https://troygrady.com/channels/talking-the-code/introduction-to-picking-motion/

The best method is to demo all the different arm positions and motions we talk about, and choose whichever one works best. Try not to get hung up on trying to “be” any particular way. Instead, let whatever success you are having determine which way you go. That’s the fastest way to get started, I think.

[CARYCHILTON]

Ok so the live broadcast vid helped sort out a lot for me. Different camera angles showed basically I am holding the pick like most. The Albert Lee, I use on acoustic guitar for volume, unless I have 4 mm Wegen type pick.

Basically find what works without pain! Right? I stumbled on thumb-over-hang (at joint) and index as @Troy and slight wrist flexion and while it never felt great for the fastest tremolo picking, for " I’ll See The Light Tonight" interlude, it was perfectly effortless.

I saw the wrist deviation and extension (which Satriani told me once as ‘anchoring") works well for metal and chuggin’ on the low strings. Satriani actually discouraged using this technique. However, what I am allowing my ‘brain’ is a accept ALL is valid for whatever string or speed or moment you need it.

I tried the wrist deviation, and tense elbow movement, and it DOES NOT work for me personally… it brought back my supposed tennis elbow feeling — as a matter of fact I still feel it as I type – area below the elbow and top side of the ulnar ridge.

I find I have my wrist flexed a lot - whether I have supination and ulnar more flattened (usually palm not really resting too much) (like Stephan) OR exaggerated flexion, pinky and ring, on the strings or body, hand above the strings and the straighter up and down picking path (kinda like Batio)

It is funny, I can do wrist deviation, but only if I add a little wrist flexion (angled up/down) otherwise it doesn’t work UNLESS I am anchoring and chugging away on a E string ( UWPS).

I finally noticed at times I roll-my forearm to the radius, when I index finger is straight along the back and basically the tip of the pick is only sticking out a little- probably due to slipping backward AND OR to change angle.

@Troy what I didn’t get from the LIVE broadcast, you made Andy Wood an example of UWPS but I did not see that. I saw a momentary UWPS on that one repetitive lick when he thought he wasn’t being filmed, but the close-ups all seem DWPS to me? Further, I find my UWPS (paragraph above) and or rotational upward slant, isn’t really slanted upward all the much. In fact, when chuggin on a E string ( metal), anchoring, wrist-deviation mentioned above ) the UWPS is basically the pick more perpendicular to the body of the guitar. I TRIED to exaggerate the slant to make the upward slant as angled as the DWPS, but I can’t seem to…so I gave up. I tried explaining that 4 months ago when joing the forum, because I started for whatever reason on the Molly cross-picking. So I guess my UWPS will basically be a perpendicular position, not really slant at all. That is using rotation or the wrist or forearm to radius. Might be an old injuring preventing a sharper angle?

[Troy]

what I didn’t get from the LIVE broadcast, you made Andy Wood an example of UWPS but I did not see that

The visible orientation of the pick is not really what pickslanting is about. It is the motion path of the pick. An upward pickslanting player makes a movement where the upstroke is trapped and the downstroke escapes. The reverse is true for downward pickslanting - the downstrokes are trapped and the upstrokes escape.

Further, these movements can both be achieved with supinated and pronated arm setups, but certain combinations are more common. Most dwps players are supinated. Uwps players are more commonly both. I am a good example of a player who is often supinated during uwps. Players like Andy Wood and John McLaughlin can appear more supinated while still executing a uwps motion path. It just means their wrist movement is not purely side to side, it involves a little FE and deviation together.

It’s fun to try out all these different setups and motions, especially if you haven’t really been made aware of these differences before. Just beware that if you go too crazy in trying out every way of doing things, it’s a little like trying to learn multiple foreign languages at once - it can be physically confusing and progress will slow down. Analysis paralysis.

The main gist here is to do a quick survey of all the movements, pick one or two that work best, and do only that for a while. You want to build some basic competence with a small subset of movements, using phrases that fit those movements. Once things start to gel, you can think about adding other things into the mix.

Remember, for ten years all I knew was dwps. And during that time, I had essentially zero knowledge of what my grip, forearm setup, or picking motion was. I simply did not think about them. I also never used a metronome, never practiced tremolo, and never knew how fast in bpm sixteenths I could play. That stuff just wasn’t that relevant to playing the lines I wanted to play, which were more of the Yngwie / EJ / Friedman dwps economy variety.

Try to get rolling with a basic big-picture setup, either pronated or supinated, some choice of one-way pickslanting movement. Whichever setup you find most comfortable may make some of these choices for you. Once the movement is in place, start getting a sense of what type of musical vocabulary you want, and start working on that, instead of exercises, as soon as you can. It’s the fastest way to know how “much” and what kind of technique you really need. Or vice versa, how much and what kind of music you can make with the technique you already have.

[CARYCHILTON]

@Troy so let me get this, Andy Wood is UWPS even though the angle of his pick is angled downward like YJM? You can see where I am getting hung on the UWPS right? I can do pretty much most any picking method or grip I see… through observation and trial&error as I have for many years. However, the effortless feeling I guess I am not conveying through my posts and photos, has only been with single string YJM runs. Sure, I am capable muscling through as I always have, but I signed up for the premium course to see if I could attain that effortless techinique with UPU DUD and cross-picking.

That is why I went to back to pick grip in terms efficiency from the base. I am 5 6" and @Troy is roughly my height. I thought who better to double check on the grip. From the LIVE Broadcast, the excerpts of all the interviews ( I have yet to see) showed me that the grips were all different.

I am fairly sure I am 100% of the mechanics explained on the LIVE and as well the missing mechanic responsible for pushing or pulling the pick through the string with an extreme-angled position like Batio, where the wrist is flexed-up like a wound-spring, and the flicking motion made by the addition of the ulnar flexion and wrist-deviation…However, for me, the motion performed slowly feels like a small push and pull.

@Troy still unsure of the UWPS and how to achieve to maximal effect. “anchoring” the wrist to body,wrist extended-position, the pick is more parallel for me and I got that. However, that form of UWPS has not helped me with fast cross-picking. Also, I tried to copy @Troy with the pulling away from the strings with doing a string change with DWPS but I can’t pull away and return very fast when my hand in that extreme supinated position. Any suggestions for making possible at fast speeds? I wont ask for more help on UWPS until I have been the module(s).

[Troy]

You can see where I am getting hung on the UWPS right?

Totally! This seemingly simple task of moving a pick back and forth is super complicated. It has taken us years to learn what we currently know, and we’re still learning new stuff daily. So yes, it is understandable if you’re confused.

Andy Wood is UWPS even though the angle of his pick is angled downward like YJM?

Andy has lots of movements, and his pick can look like lots of different things depending on the instrument he’s playing, the movement he’s making, and the camera angle you’re watching. So try not to get too focused on what his pick looks like. Instead, the “slant” in pickslanting refers to the slant of the motion path, not the slant of the pick. Watch the pickstroke, observe where it starts, observe where it ends - the line it traces will tell you which kind of pickstroke it is.

In general, if you’re having trouble with anything you’re working on, post a short clip in Technique Critique of just that playing example with some written notes, and we’ll be happy to take a look. I will admit sometimes I get a little lost when I’m reading through longer forum posts with several different questions in them, because it’s hard for me to know what the major pain point is, if any. If you can boil that down, especially with a video clip, you’ll get the most targeted possible feedback.