Swiping and Self-Worth or: Becomig a "real" (?) guitar player

Playing Technique
#26

Great topic! I always felt that “shred guitar” was conditioned to be competitive, with all the arguments about who’s the fastest / cleanest / hardest lines and endless lists of “greatest of all time” filler articles in magazines (back when people bought magazines).

So, I guess it makes sense that if you conceptualize swiping as “bad”, you’d try to avoid it to be “good”. However, if you start thinking in absolutes, you’ll run into “No true Scotsman” arbitrary stipulations on guitar all the time.

When I first started trying to “shred”, I heard something along the lines of “you should practice everything with a clean tone, no gain; that’s how you know you’re good.” I tried for a little and found it very uncomfortable feeling and just not fun. I quickly rejected that notion.

Then I heard (or made up, can’t remember) the stipulation that if you’re good, you should be able to play the same no matter the guitar, or the amp, or the pick… I think one of the reasons I would always get frustrated at guitar stores is that I could never perform like I did at home. That idea took me longer to reject.

“You should be able to play without warming up”
“You should be able to play the same on acoustic”
“You should be able to play no matter guitar setup / string gauge”

All these are just arbitrary stipulations / “no true Scotsman” scenarios that are just going to hold you back.

Going back to swiping, Troy has done amazing things with analyzing technique and identifying so many things. The problem here is that some people are quick to just label things as “bad”. The one I see most frequently is string-hopping. They try to avoid it at all cost, even though what’s holding them back is something else entirely. I know that I do it when the speed is slow enough, because that’s what comes naturally. Is someone going to tell me I’m not good because I string hop?

Then comes USX / DSX / DBX. There’s people with immaculate technique that’s either upstroke or downstroke escape. They probably avoid certain lines entirely because it doesn’t match their escapes. Are they now considered “bad” because they can’t play everything? Are you only “good” if you DBX?

All that being said, there will be people that somehow check all the boxes. They might even do it with marginal practice, or playing for a shockingly short amount of time. “There will always be someone better than you” is proven time and again with technical guitar, especially when YouTube came around. You just have to be ok with that and still be proud of your personal accomplishments.

Not related to guitar, but to the topic: I live where the US national climbing team is located. I frequently run into / climb alongside them at the gyms and outdoors. Some of those dudes have climbed grades that maybe like a dozen people on earth have done? It’s always awesome to see them perform at such a high level, and it doesn’t detract from my own personal feeling of accomplishment, nor does it make me want to quit. You have to be ok with the reality that there will always be people that are better than you.

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#27

Yes, I think you are right. I am a little confused by this. I am pretty sure you are not suggesting that in Joscho´s case, you could call it a mistake, rather the contrary. So I guess it´s also a matter of definition… When would we call it a picking error?

By the way, thank you all for your responses. I could already take away a whole lot of motivation here.

#28

Joscho’s use of swiping is not a mistake since there is no possible way it can be “fixed”. USX motion cannot do downstroke string changes with alternate picking. So Joscho’s solution is more like a trick or a hack to enable a lick which is not usually possible in his picking style. Not only that, but it takes skill to perform it sonically invisibly, and he does it perfectly every time. In any practical way you can think of, what Joscho is doing fits what we usually think of as a technique.

All that being said, it sounds like you’re hung up on what things are called, and whether they are called something good or bad, or mistake or technique. That type of thinking is not helpful, as @Pepepicks66 is pointing out. These are just language questions that end up being limiting beliefs.

If you want to stop worrying about these things, the best way is to play awesome things that you think sound great and make you excited. This will put you in a positive hands-on creative mindset where you play and enjoy.

The best way to do that is the checklist I’ve posted above. Where are you in that checklist? What problems are you experiencing? Post a clip if possible and we will get you over the hump.

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#29

I just went through the antigravity seminar and I feel a lot better about the prospect of being able to play fast knowing that many fast players just plow through strings with swiping. I like that there isn’t a super human pin point accuracy string hopping secret, they just slam right through the strings. It’s awesome.

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#30

I think that in really fast tempos swiping may be unavoidable. If you look at guys like Al Di Meola, Paul Gilbert, Vinnie Moore, Batio - they all swipe outside upstroke string changes even though they have a helper motion for escaped upstrokes. My guess is that in case of outside picking the phase when the pick is above the string is longer than when you do inside picking. When playing really fast the trajectory flattens and you end up swiping anyway, even though your mechanics are correct and you make a forearm twist or some other helper motion.

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#31

Or would even care to for that matter. I think most come to the realization at some point that the fact they can do it at all takes precedence over how they are actually pulling it off. The intention is there. How they got there or what they utilize to do so is just not as important of a concern. Well that’s how I approach it at least.

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#32

My stance on this is that guitar playing in general is not some Olympic event where you are being graded on these things. Yngwie doesn’t all of a sudden become a shittier player because he uses pull offs, sweeps and phrases that facilitate his picking hand. Likewise Paul Gilbert doesn’t get a disqualification if he accidentally or unknowingly even, nicks a string on an upstroke during a string change. If you are trying to get a musical point across, what you do to facilitate that point is less of a concern, than making the point. If it sounds good, it IS good.

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#33

I forgot about this thread, which has some overlap to what’s here.

TL;DR could be watching the video at this timestamp where one of the all time great alternate pickers shows the sonic difference between swiping and not swiping

Anton plays some pretty complicated patterns where swiping won’t cut it. And those are extreme cases with wide skips and left hand shapes where the ability to mute adjacent strings might not happen. For him this choice makes sense. For the vast majority of players the cost/benefit of this type of technique development just doesn’t pay dividends. Certainly not for scalar playing anyway.

Does his ability to not swipes make him superior to Paul Gilbert??? Internet trolls can argue that all they want. As for me, I’ll keep on swiping :slight_smile:

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#34

I swipe too. I have trouble hearing it so it doesn’t bother me. :rofl:

I feel there are far more important aspects of picking technique to focus on such as hand synchronisation. This is something that has a huge effect on your sound and solos and it is quite hard to master at high speed. Not many players have really nailed that I have heard. Paul Gilbert has and early Yngwie is a masterclass in it!

1 Like
#35

I’d also add that something like not being able to pick every note can be a blessing in disguise. It forces you to use varied articulation like legato, slides, etc. There are tons of unmusical shredders who can pick every note. It sounds like somebody singing the same syllabe over and over again, it gives me sensory deprivation. That’s the reason we listen to players like Yngwie and Friedman, they have a great vibrato and mix different kinds of articulation. I believe their technical limitations played a huge role in developing these skills.

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#36

I just remembered there’s a great quote by Marty on this. 42m43s in case timestamp doesn’t work.

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#37

This is awesome. I’ve had this idea for years and never went anywhere with it. Basically any lick I come up with, don’t necessarily pick all the notes, don’t necessarily legato them all or even figure out what ‘works’ based on USX/DSX. Instead, determine what the lick needs to sound like. This could have one or more slurred notes at any given point in the lick. Sort of like a classical composer or orchestrator would do when they write parts. They likely don’t know the instruments’ mechanical problems, they just put in slurs/phrasing as they want it to and leave it up to the musicians to execute.

I feel like it’s a rabbit hole that could take a while, which is why I’ve never pursued it. The benefit would be another way to add a lot of personality to our playing though.

#38

I could watch him play all day long. Always has such interesting ideas.

#39

It can be a long and frustrating process. Some people seem gifted and after practicing for a few months, they make great gains. Other practice and practice for years yet like yourself, still struggle.

I think you have to ask yourself how committed are you really? Do you REALLY want it? What if you can’t improve any further? Can you live with it and work accordingly? I mean like adjusting the music you play, the licks you play, to accommodate your speed?

I think, personally, that you’re pushing too hard. You’re taking the fun out of playing and turning it into a form of punishment. Kick back! Switch things up for a while. Play some stuff for fun. I bet if you do, you’ll suddenly find you’ve picked up some speed seemingly out of nowhere. The brain needs time to process things. So try to enjoy playing again. Take a little break, recommit and then bust it again for a while.

Good luck…

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#40

Here’s Andy swiping the hell out of the low strings on an easy 6’s run. I’ve been quite the negative Nancy in my Technique Critique posts and at this point have decided not to even bother checking to see if swiping is happening because it will drive you absolutely insane.

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#41

I would just add that many of the best players in the world use swiping…Rusty Cooley, MAB, Zakk Wylde, Al Di Meola, the list goes on and on. And it seems to me that some of these guys don’t even swipe, they actually just plow through the strings with reckless abandon! (Rusty Cooley, Zakk Wylde.) And they sound great doing it!
One of the things I’ve learned here at CTC is, if it sounds good, it is good.

5 Likes
#42

To add to the “lying” aspect a bit, and something that made me feel terrible at my level of proficiency, is people who lie about how long they’ve been playing.
It really upsets me when I see it, some people been playing 10 years then tell people they’ve only been playing for 2 or 4 years. Some low number thats obviously a lie when you see them shredding Jason Becker sweeps, or some other difficult song.

I can believe there are real prodigys who learn unreasonably fast. But thats very very few. And it won’t be some random bedroom player who otherwise is doing nothing with their guitar abilities.
I’ve encounter a few in real life, and seen a lot online who are just outright lying how long they been playing. Some even do it on FB and you can see they are lying cus they are playing guitar a decade ago on their profile. Thats probably the main thing that pisses me off about some musicians. It really discourages new players. It certainly did to me.

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#43

I was playing note perfect covers of Eric Johnson, Steve Morse and Paul Gilbert tunes after playing for four years. I had only been attempting to play that type of material for under two years at the time.

I’m pretty much some random player doing nothing with his playing ability.

#44

I taught guitar professionally for over a decade. Hundreds of students walked through my doors. The type of progress you are describing is pretty rare :slight_smile:

And to be clear, I don’t doubt your claim in the slightest, just saying most people who pick up the instrument don’t advance that quickly, if ever.

Interestingly, among the elite players, I think it’s extremely common to see fast advancement. Most had their chops and even a good bit of their signature style in well under 10 years of serious playing.

I’m sure this happens. Where there are people, there will be egos :slight_smile: As stated above though, many phenomenal players just simply are that good. Their natural intuition allows them to accomplish more in a shorter period of time than the rest of us. Regular people (like me, quite an “average Joe”) dedicated probably all the hours in my formative years as the greats, just without the same satisfying results :slight_smile:

#45

I was playing Spanish fly after 2/3 years note for note and in time. Really badly and inconsistency though. So I wouldn’t class myself as acually playing it. I’m talking about people who genuinely try to fool people into thinking they’re amazing by lying about their time on the instrument. I don’t mean it to be an attack towards people who’ve acually got that ability. Perhaps my last section is to harsh and out of frustration.

Point is, it is frustrating and upsetting when you can clearly see someone doing that. I encountered this in college a couple times and it negatively effected me. It lowered my self worth on the instrument. Though I’ve learnt to get over that by understanding it’s not a race, it’s a way of communication. It still gets to you though when you see it. Or at least gets to me :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: