Swiping and Self-Worth or: Becomig a "real" (?) guitar player

[tommo]

A bit off-topic and just an opinion but I think what we call “talent” is a combination of the following things:

1. knowing what you want to achieve (in a specific way, not just “be good at X”)
2. knowing what is worth working on to achieve point 1
3. continuously assessing problems and finding solutions or workarounds

I suspect that this is in large part the “secret” behind fast progress. Think about how many of us already fail at point 1 on a daily basis (e.g. me). Working without this structure is like chopping 5 tons of wood and at the end realising you didn’t need any wood chopped.

[joebegly]

@tommo

Working without this structure is like chopping 5 tons of wood and at the end realising you didn’t need any wood chopped.

hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

[Tom_Gilroy]

I’m not arguing that there aren’t people who don’t misrepresent their skill or their time on the instrument. I’m sure there are.

I’m just trying to say that there are some of us who reached a high level of skill quickly. We may not be many but I can’t possibly imagine that I’m that extraordinary.

[Muso1981]

That’s a pretty bold claim to be playing note perfect Steve Morse covers after just 4 years of guitar playing. In my opinion Steve Morse stuff is some of the hardest stuff out there.

[tommo]

Hey All,
I’ve been a bit guilty myself of derailing this thread but I suggest we don’t turn it into a “betcha can’t play this” sorta thing

I think the main point of the discussion is to not hold ourselves to unreasonable standards, given that even the best players in history didn’t 100% clear every single string change in their performances

[Tom_Gilroy]

You’re welcome to your doubt or disbelief.

I don’t have any reason to lie or misrepresent myself here.

I worked out the principles of crosspicking and escape movements geometrically as a teenager. I even had a notebook where I calculated the radii of crosspicking arcs and angles of linear escape based upon pick depth.

I was a lonely, depressed teenager. I practiced guitar for hours every day because it distracted me from my misery.

[Tom_Gilroy]

@tommo

I think the main point of the discussion is to not hold ourselves to unreasonable standards, given that even the best players in history didn’t 100% clear every single string change in their performances

Absolutely. I wrote this in another thread, but I feel it’s relevant here too:

@Tom_Gilroy

The “shred” guitarists that are idolized all have their own idiosyncratic mechanics and their own personal vocabularies which fit those mechanics. For any of them we can name, we can point to something they do extraordinarily well, but there are also many things they cannot do. We just assume they can “play anything”, and we assume that anything they have modified to better fit their playing is done purely for the purpose of musical self expression.

Yet, we don’t give ourselves the same pass. When we have to modify anything to better fit our playing, it’s because we can’t do it the way they did. We get upset that we can’t alternate pick like Paul Gilbert, can’t sweep like Frank Gambale, can’t play legato like Brett Garsed, can’t play as fast as Shawn Lane, can’t play pentatonics like Eric Johnson, can’t use the vibrato bar like Jeff Beck, etc.

If I really think about it, these aren’t fair comparisons. For all of them, there is something I can do at least as well as them, usually something I’ve developed by studying one of the others. I don’t compare my hybrid picking to Paul Gilbert, my alternate picking to Brett Garsed, my vibrato bar use to Frank Gambale, my sweep/economy/swybrid picking to Shawn Lane, my legato to Eric Johnson or my speed to Jeff Beck. We focus on the comparisons where we come out lesser.

[Fossegrim]

I mean honestly it really depends. I was “Van Halen” ready only after a year of playing. And could play relatively harder techniques at around that time if not with in the two year mark.

But, then I fell victim to the below excerpt, and stayed where I was at for a while afterwards because the two very important conditions Tommo outlined below were not met,

@tommo

1) knowing what you want to achieve (in a specific way, not just “be good at X”)
2) knowing what is worth working on to achieve point 1

To me learning techniques after a short period of time, or playing some things note for note isn’t all that impressive. What is impressive and what does take a long time is finding your own voice and phrasing on the instrument.

[bradejensen]

@Troy

What if the assigment is to play ascending sixes using Gypsy motion and swiping, like Joscho is doing in this clip. It’s not academic. There are valid reasons to assign this, because it’s a useful skill to have, as Joscho demonstrates:

I sure hope he notates this on his academy, that sneaky little devil.

the hard part for myself would be trying to hide the sound of it. i have only tried it for two days though so i just gotta give it time.

[tommo]

@bradejensen

the hard part for myself would be trying to hide the sound of it. i have only tried it for two days though so i just gotta give it time.

I would suggest playing the lick immediately at (or close enough to) the speed at which Joscho is playing it. Just wing it a few times and you may be able to surprise yourself

[PickingApprentice]

In brief;
(Since I have no need to procreate any further) I would give my left nut to be able to play what I wanted at the speed I wanted fully swiped! as I might actually enjoy playing a lot more than I do (and could probably minimise its occurance over time. I definitely swipe stuff, but I do it more when I’m looking for it, to the point that I’m sure I make it happen more when I actually try and prevent/fix it (moth effect! ).

@Troy

Short answer: Play single escape lines. There is no issue with swiping and you can play at any speed you want.

I 100% agree with this in principle and would advocate this approach, but in practice its not always that easy. I have been so fed up with my playing over the last 2 years that I came to the conclusion of "F**k alternate picking for now, just use USX a la EJ or Yngwie and be done with it!) Suffice to say, I have struggled so badly to incorporate the economy picking elements that it makes alternate picking seem like the fun option!

[bradejensen]

@PickingApprentice

I 100% agree with this in principle and would advocate this approach, but in practice its not always that easy. I have been so fed up with my playing over the last 2 years that I came to the conclusion of "F**k alternate picking for now, just use USX a la EJ or Yngwie and be done with it!) Suffice to say, I have struggled so badly to incorporate the economy picking elements that it makes alternate picking seem like the fun option!

i just feel like i want to throw the pick into the trash, and apply some fake nails to try flamenco economy picado so i can be done with this conundrum.

for some reason if you look at all the speed tricks with the pick it all gets solved with flamenco 3 finger economy picado, and those tricks seem to just borrow the aspects from this realm. Like basically swybrid is just the third finger to help go faster that Marshall Harrison developed.

because if you desire to still use rest stroke style plectrum picking i kinda think you can get away with doing it with your thumb, as yamandu costa has been analyzed doing upstrokes with his thumb.

The Secrets of Guitar Speed - Picado

[bradejensen]

ok so now the big question i have now

is this a swipe rest stroke? does the pick swipe through to rest on the next string before doing the upstroke on the previous string? in my mind this would make a lot of sense as you get a pretty nice rebound effect off that rest by the gravity of motion being further.

joscho is only doing this on the high e string, but what about when it occurs when doing it on a lower string where the pick can rest on the string after it swipes through the previous one.

[joebegly]

@bradejensen

ok so now the big question i have now

is this a swipe rest stroke?

It doesn’t have to be, but it can be. Totally up to you. If most of your pickstrokes are already rest strokes, it makes sense to keep that going. To me the most important thing with swiped notes is good muting so that they aren’t heard (or barely heard…a little extra ‘chunk’ noise is kinda cool sometimes ). I hear some players need to also not really feel the swipe either. In that case, a rest stroke makes good sense because it already has some power behind it and you’ll probably plow through the swiped (muted) string without even knowing.

[kgk]

If there is one thing CtC taught me is that there are a thousand legitimate ways to skin a cat (er, pluck a string). The CtC models are invaluable to address various performance obstacles given that there is much that one can attempt but ultimately the goal is “only” to sound great while playing.

It seems to me that most people here correctly adopt the “if it sounds good, it is good” philosophy. Indeed, the only reason I want to see Magnet footage of somebody is to see if they have some tricks that I can steal—looking is never a “purity test” where I would criticize them.

[bradejensen]

@joebegly

I hear some players need to also not really feel the swipe either. In that case, a rest stroke makes good sense because it already has some power behind it and you’ll probably plow through the swiped (muted) string without even knowing.

Was looking at it again and the best weapon tactical approach would be to immediately as the sound hits on the last downstroke you swipe like the dickens through the next string to get to the rest on the 2nd string before upstroking the 1st swiped string hide it in sound of the downstroke note the moment it sounds through speed. make it disappear thats how fast you do it. and probably with the beauty of compression pedals that attacked downstroke note can be diluted. on my classical guitar however it cannot

[joebegly]

@bradejensen

probably with the beauty of compression pedals that attacked downstroke note can be diluted. on my classical guitar however it cannot

Yeah I have never had any success with it on acoustic. Troy has shown footage of AL Di and also MAB swiping on acoustic. They make it work. To my ears it’s much more audible than players who do it on electric, which I can’t usually hear unless I am really trying to.

[Moje]

Wow; just read the entire thread, that was fascinating. The psychology element is something I’d thought about before, I love the flexibility of dual-escape picking but in the weeks since discovering CtC there’s no escaping it (pardon the pun): the one scalar lick I can reliably move across all six strings at speed uses upward escape. (Sixes with five alternates on the high E, one upstroke on the B string, repeat.)

If I were using double-escape, as I’ve been kidding myself, I could do the same with the Jet-to-Jet sixes, but I can’t: simple as that.

BTW for anyone wanting to isolate swiping, the acid test for me was simply muting the strings with the left hand; any swipes will be clear as day. It’s a humbling experience but cleans up double escape passages quickly.

So now I feel kind of dumb that I literally didn’t know what I was doing, but also optimistic: Any advice out there? Upward slanting and double escape make up most of my picking but I use downward slanting for arpeggios and sometimes to transition from arpeggios to scales.

This is an ideal time to change things up, I haven’t played much electric for years so the habits aren’t locked in like they used to be. Thanks for reading.

[PickingApprentice]

@Moje

BTW for anyone wanting to isolate swiping, the acid test for me was simply muting the strings with the left hand; any swipes will be clear as day. It’s a humbling experience but cleans up double escape passages quickly.

I found it difficult to only pick- it felt awkward. Instead, I weaved a bit of paper between the strings and fretted the notes below the paper. The strings slap against the paper with a nice “thwack!” but you still get to ‘play’ as you usually would.

[Moje]

That’s brilliant! Yes muting only works for really straightforward ideas because you’re relying on feedback from the left hand to “track” the phrase. So after that monumental thread what’s your feeling on double-escape? Troy’s initial suggestion makes sense (of course) but I’m inclined to minimize swipe and live with a certain amount of it as things like Gilbert sixes are working for me (somewhat.) Before I read your thread I just dismissed my (well, someone’s) descending sixes lick as “cheating” but I now think it’s just idealistic and nonproductive to think that way.

It’s hard to describe but a big part of why I do this is just the feeling; when everything flows it just feels great. Downward slanting feels bizarre, I can’t imagine ascending scales that way but who knows.