Technique critique - Rgstrain

Hello everyone,

After a long hiatus, I have decided to pick up my guitar again and this time I’d like to try and do it properly. I am but a humble bedroom guitar player, but any constructive criticism would be welcomed (brought to you by studio iPhone so apologies for the poor quality recording)

Here are my own thoughts:

  • As far as I can tell (I’m no expert), I am using two way pick slanting.
  • I find it difficult when playing scales across all 6 strings, whether this is a stamina thing or string tracking thing I’m unsure.
  • I find it much easier to play ascending (from 6th to 1st) than descending. I wondered if anyone else has noticed this and what the reasons may be?

I would also like to thank @Troy and the rest of the team. Cracking the Code is a wonderful movement and they should be very proud of it.

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Hey thanks for posting! Video’s not playing for me, can you double check the link? Probably copy paste error or it’s accidentally set to “private”.

ah yeah, set to private. Good catch.

Hi! Thanks for posting. This sounds fine to me. What were you looking for feedback on?

And what leads you to think you’re using two-way pickslanting here? I’m not saying you’re not! But we’ve had some discussions about terminology lately. And one of the things we’re learning is that because we weren’t always totally clear on what we meant by these terms, different players have come away with slightly different understanding of them.

Specifically, when it comes to “two-way pickslanting”, we’ve probably been most vocal about needing to see some type of turning motion of the arm, resulting in a turning type trajectory of the pick. This is how we’ve represented things in our more popular YouTube features on the subject. Since then we’ve learned that really isn’t necessary - someone can be “two-way” who uses little or even no forearm movement at all.

That appears to be what is happening in your case. Unless you’re swiping, which we really can’t tell from this clip, then your “two way” pickslanting technique appears mostly to come mostly from the wrist.

This is my long-winded way of asking, are you saying “two-way” because you’re trying to turn the arm? If so, that is not what is happening. And that’s fine! But as a point of observation, that’s what it looks like to me.

Thanks for your thoughts Troy!

Now that you mention it, I’m not sure why I think I’m using TWPS. I knew I wasn’t always keeping the pick at a dedicated angle, particularly when crossing strings so I just assumed it was TWPS. Maybe I need to investigate more. Hopefully these videos will provide more insight.

In terms of feedback, I think it was just a bit of reassurance that my technique was viable before I continue. Also, I think that if I can understand the mechanics behind my technique then I can consciously focus more on it, rather than just hoping things will eventually click.

Thanks again for your help.

From these clips, I would say that you are indeed keeping the pick at the same “angle”. However, and I’m going to apologize again for the confusion we’ve created on this, the “two way” in “two-way pickslanting” really refers to the angle of the motion paths, not the angle of the pick grip itself. In that regard, I would say that you are doing a very nice wrist-only two-way pickslant here, because you are using complementary wrist movements to get over the string depending on the type of string change you’re making, i.e. whether on a downstroke or upstroke.

For more on how that works, and how to determine which variety of this type of movement you’re making, I’d refer you to this talk which we recently did on the subject:

https://troygrady.com/channels/talking-the-code/crosspicking-with-the-wrist/

We’re using the bluegrass roll patterns as the test mule but the concept is the same. And those patterns are great tests to iron out the movement, and of course useful also because arpeggio playing is cool.

In general, we’re learning that a lot of people probably play this way. And this probably includes a lot of players who think there is something lacking in their technique because they can’t play a million miles an hour. In this case I think what you’re doing looks good. I prefer a little more angle-pad in my grip, rather than pad-pad, as you’re doing. I feel like I get a better actual grip on the pick, and more edge picking when I want it. But that’s up to you.

And I think you’re right, that even simply becoming more conscious of super powers you already have can make you more able to capitalize and improve on them.

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Thanks for taking the time to help me out! It looks like I have some homework to do, which is half the fun really!

For those of us in the peanut gallery, is this essentially crosspicking and the language we’re using to discuss this is just continuing to evolve, or is this something different?

Looking at the mechanic in slow motion, the orientation of the pick (I know, false flag) and the mechanic in especially the first video makes it almost look like an upwards escaped stroke, and I think the upwards escape is maybe more pronounced than the downwards in both videos… But really focusing in on the tip of the pick in the descending run, it does seem to be coming across the top of the strings… Maybe an 11 o’clock/2:30 o’clock motion, I guess.

EDIT - also, I love the number of “yeah, I’m just a bedroom player, really not that good” guys we have here who really are actually pretty damned solid players, it’s a refreshing change from the egos of a number of boards I’ve read over the years!

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Again, I think we’ve confused the hell out of everyone with some of the terminology. So I apologize!

To me, the term “crosspicking” as we’ve been using it means “a phrase where all the pickstrokes escape at both ends”. The term “two-way pickslanting” to me means “a phrase where you switch between different single-escape pickstrokes, with double escaped pickstrokes at the connection points”. In other words, these are descriptions of alternate picking styles, not movements. The double escape movement is present in both styles. The single-escape movement is present only in two-way pickslanting.

In this case, at least from this view, it looks like things are escaping only as they need to, ergo, two-way pickslanting. But without a Magnet it’s hard to say. In general, however, you can view “crosspicking” as simply a continual sequence of single escape movements. And the players that can do that can usually also do each of the single-escape movements, and probably do when the tempos get fast enough.

On top of this, and perhaps somewhat more descriptively, I’ve been using the term “902” recently to describe players who use a lightly supinated arm setup and are capable of all the pickstroke varieties. To me that sidesteps the terminology issue because it describes the movements directly, i.e. the whole system. The “9” movement, the “2” movement, and the completely escaped “902” movement if and when it appears. Of course there are 801 players (Albert Lee, perhaps) and 7012 players (Steve Morse), as we move around the clock. But the same concept applies - these are the movements from which player X chooses.

In the long term, I think the higher-level categories like “two-way pickslanting” still have some validity since they do describe certain phrases and tendencies that we see out there in the real world. But for clarity, I think the more we talk about the movements we’re seeing, the less ambiguity there is overall.

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…so, if I follow, basically, 902 as any combination of a 9 oclock, 2 oclock, and 9-to-2-and-back movement, used as necessary, rather than automatically the curved “crosspicked” motion?

Actually, that’s interesting. Maybe the one good thing of us confusing the hell out of each other is it prompts thinking, and if I tend to have a bit of a natural arc to my picking stroke anyway, then maybe it’s possible to isolate the two parts of that mechanic and working on a 9-to-0-to-9 “downstroke escaped” one directional pickstroke and the 2-to-0-to-2 “upstroke escaped” pickstroke separately, to build seperate-but-related UWPS and DWPS strokes (and, probably, have the effect of making the combined crosspicked stroke more efficient).

Hmm. I’m sitting here at work wishing I had a guitar here with me to give that a shot and make sure that what I’m envisioning actually works and wouldn’t just be some form of string-hopping.

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That’s one way I’ve been using the term, i.e. to refer to a family of related motions for a particular arm setup. I try to make it clear from context whether I’m referring to the 902 curved pickstroke, or the motion family. Probably I’m just going to end up confusing everyone, and myself, again!

Sure, except this is backwards - 9 is the upstroke, 2 is the downstroke.

But yes the concept stands. Most “crosspick” type players who were taught to do the curved motion as their default seem to morph into the single escape motions when they go fast without being aware of it. So one of the things we’ve considered is that perhaps teaching people to do the curved motion is a better starting point than the single escape motions, since you might end up getting those “for free” anyway.

In your case I would try not to worry too much what your technique currently is, and how that should influence what it will become. I think that puts too much emphasis on the things you’re already doing as being somehow important. They’re not. They’re just things you learned at a prior point before you thought too much about movements. You can keep them or ditch them as it matters for your musical goals.

Instead, I’d just get down to some basic brass tacks practice with one of these movements or movement families that we now know about. If you have hand synchronization issues and motion smoothness issues, then some pickslanting-style practice using a 9 or 2 type motion on single string patterns is a fine way to address that. i.e. If the Andy Wood style arm setup is one you’d like to use.

Then go from there.

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Musically I have a couple of comments:

  1. Make sure you can control accents - you are accenting in all the ‘obvious’ spots and the spots that are easiest to accent but it’s important imo that you have the technique and rhythmic awareness where you can accent odd off beats or syncopations, or not always accenting on the string change

  2. This looks good and I’m not the one do an in depth mechanical analysis on the scale runs and motion mechanics but an important question I’d say would be, what is it that you want to play? It would be interesting, and maybe more relevant, to critique a passage of music that you want to improve at, something you’d actually want to perform or record - in addition to the blunt scale run, which is also of course useful visual/audio data.

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Is there going to be a rework of the Pickslanting Primer to include this new information that we have learned about Pickslanting and Crosspicking and how they can work with only the wrist or with the forearm?

For sure, all this stuff will make its way into introductory-level tutorial stuff so there is much less ambiguity. We’re planning out now what form that will take.

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A post was split to a new topic: Sebasbeck Technique Critique

Totally agree with this. I’m completely confused by all this new terminology and have no idea what all this 902 702 stuff means. Looking at those videos based on what I’d previously read/seen from CTC, I would’ve called that an upward pickslant with crosspicking movements to escape. It sounds like that’s not the case, so now I’m just left thinking whatever I’d previously understood is wrong and wondering whether I’ll just give up trying to understand it.

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The way I understand it : it’s the wrist deviation + extension compound wrt to arm set-up. The more supinated you are and the more ‘vertical’ you are on the clock (and the more extension vs deviation motion is)

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I think a diagram or something might help here. It sounds like it’s 3D space that’s being referred to using a 2D clock face analogy. I don’t get it.

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If you watch the Albert Lee video- it’s the same explanation just using different terminology.

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Thanks for the feedback! Indeed this “clock face” terminology is pretty new…not that our previous lessons were wrong per se (though some of our old stuff is now a bit out of date / inadequate) but we now understand stuff better than before and have more clear and precise ways of talking about it. In this case a new way of talking about different ways of doing the crosspicking motion, as @blueberrypie indicates determined by the interplay of forearm setup and wrist movements.

The workshop Troy linked above, even though it has a crosspicking focus, is actually our best tutorial yet on the fundamentals of how wrist movement works, as well as other core things like forearm setup and pick grip. In fact we’ve just re-done our “Getting Started” section because we think this stuff is important for everyone to know, and this is currently the best we have on these topics:

https://troygrady.com/start/

Eventually we do want to get this material in a bit more concise chapterized format. And agree that it would be helpful to have some clear visuals (diagrams / animations) accompanying this to make things like the clock face analogy more clear. I think that’s something we’ll add at some point as well. But for now those workshops are the place to go for all the details on this!