That EVH swing: what makes it so difficult to duplicate?

Ben Eller talked about this in one of his recent videos, as did Phil X. You can find all sorts of players who can properly rip through something like “Tumani Notes” or any number of other highly challenging songs, but finding a guitarist who can do “I’m the One” justice is rare indeed. Even the mighty Andy Wood—a guitarist among guitarists—didn’t nail it when he covered that song on his channel.

So what’s the deal? From my own observations playing along with “I’m the One”, I can maintain that swing up to about 60% of its original speed, and as I go beyond that the notes begin to lose their swing and start to even out to straight 16ths. I can sing it at speed with swing, or just tap my fingers on the desk perfectly along with it, so it isn’t a question of being unable to internally feel the rhythm. I can comfortably maintain an even alternate picking speed well beyond the tempo “I’m the One”, so it isn’t a matter of raw picking speed either. And Eddie himself wasn’t a monster alternate picker; almost all his speedy playing was accomplished through those wonderfully slinky legato lines.

My best guess as to the problem: to swing you have to do this tiny pause after the downstroke then come back extra quick with the upstroke to keep it in time.That kind of thing runs counter to those of us who’ve practiced specifically to maintain a smooth and even picking speed. It requires introducing tension to your picking that most of us have actively worked to eliminate. So in that sense, those who are most accomplished at fast and fluid alternate picking are probably the worst equipped to swing like Eddie.

What are your thoughts?

To add: one fun experiment to try is take any of your favorite lines that you can easily pick at fast speed, then try to play that line with a swing feel. If you’re like me, the speed at which you can play it will drop tremendously.

I have no idea about swing music so I looked it up, this guy seems to have a wonderful explanation of it:

I believe Ed developed this because his father was a swing jazz musician and it came naturally. How to achieve it? I think you’d just have to train yourself to offset the pick slightly vertically from the string in order to make your otherwise straight time picking have a “wobble”, aka swing.

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as you get faster the swing (gradually) becomes more of a matter of articulation and less a matter of a difference in note length, I’m trying to dig out an article about jazz articulation for the saxophone that explained this to me many years ago but I can’t remember who it was by or where it was

edit: It’s the last page of this, apologies that the link is an absolute state

edit to the edit: this is good too:

Troy did an interesting write up on swing where the actual length of the pick stroke could create the swing. I think it was when he interviewed David Grier. In a DSX context, imagine the pick traveling away from the body 2 inches (just hypothetical here). Since it takes longer to get back to the string (the upstroke) than it does to initially pick on the downstroke, that little offset can create the swing without the need to really “pause”. This allows a more constant rate with the picking but still has the end result of swing.

I’d imagine the faster the tempo this breaks down because the pick strokes would be getting unmanageable in their length to make it work. Plus, this doesn’t work in USX when starting on a down stroke. The pick is buried into the strings and can’t go further. Plenty of jazz cats like Joe Pass and Tal Farlow were USX and could swing. So to some extent, some people out there are managing the pauses successfully. At the end of the day it probably comes down to where we spend our time.

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I am not an expert on swing but it seems that there is no “pause,” it’s just that for a pair that is swung, instead of durations being (1/2) * T and (1/2) * T, it is (2/3) * T and (1/3) * T. This ability seems to be very closely related to triplets! In fact, at triplet picking speed, it could be (?) downstroke, upstroke miss, downstroke? Does that make sense? (I don’t know, I just learned about this stuff.)

I think you’re right, people that want to swing will be good at it, and people like me will be like, “what’s swing?!”

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Interesting takes, all. Even trying to play “Rock this Town” by the Stray Cats can be a humbling experience for someone who fancies themselves fleet of finger. Playing swing really requires a different approach to technique.

I am not qualified but this argument seems like it might actually be correct, so let me make it.

If I’m galloping, how would I pick that? Perhaps something like

  • Down, (up, missed), down, up.

And if I wanted to swing? Assuming that I could switch to triplet picking speed, it would be

  • Down, (up, missed), down.

So is it really that hard? :thinking:

Now I don’t play jazz, etc., but wouldn’t this work to have a very accurate swing at any speed, assuming that one can switch back-and-forth to picking to triplet speed? I have no idea how the jazz guitarists do it in real life, it would be interesting to learn more from one of them.

And this page is really interesting, I never thought much beyond triplets, but it gets pretty crazy pretty fast (and I’m sure that I couldn’t play most of it correctly).

I think it’s a lot in his hands construction and the way he held the pick.

Tho there is Joshua Jones Who holds it quite different, but I think still his grip and position allows a lot of bounce to the stroke.

On topic and off topic but holy $h1+ do they sound amazing on this live!

I’m big into background vocals just because I know how hard it is to nail it live and they do a killer job.

That’s very interesting, but I don’t think that will work at a tempo like this. That would require picking 6 notes per beat at a tempo not far below what Al Di Meola does in his solos lol! I think all the calculated “misses” would just end up causing a trainwreck and that’s asking a lot to sustain that fast of picking for that long. He’s just doing alternate picking with the offset on the upbeats.

I’m a little rusty on my rhythm (I’m a member of some crazy forum that is obsessed with lead playing :slight_smile: ) but I just tried this and I think it’s a great candidate for the DSX based “longer down strokes” approach I outlined above. While I’m fully on board with the CtC approved method of “starting with speed” in the context of learning motions, I think locking into a rhythm is sometimes best done practicing a little slower than the target tempo. It just helps to get used to the feel.

If I were playing this in a cover band, I’d practice it by looping it in soundslice or a youtube plugin that allows for start/stop points, and just backing the tempo up till it feels really easy to play along with Eddie. 70% felt pretty good for me, then I could gradually bump it up approaching speed. Yes, it feels a little strange. I’m a huge classic rock fan but my rhythm chops were built playing Metallica so I’m much better at playing straight. I think this is attainable though and in Eddie’s case, just a matter of something he practiced a lot of. He was a huge Cream fan so it stands to reason he got plenty of swing practice.

None of that’s to say he wasn’t super human, of course. I just think compared to other aspects of his awesome playing, this isn’t too far out of reach for us normal guys. So overall, no mechanical magic, just some good old fashioned “fun” practicing along to the recording.

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He’s really doing that rythem fast :open_mouth: I also love Wolfgangs backing vocals. I’m surprised they are doing it so fast lol Dave got no time to relax lol Ed can no doubt keep up to the original speed, but Dave’s voice is not what it was, being a professional singer must really be annoying as you age, See it a lot in dave mustaines voice as he’s older now too.

I think if you want to get this swing try the middle finger technique. It should give all the range and swing you need, to do it effectively and relaxed.

That’s what Eddie grew up playing. They were hugely influenced by the band Cactus, and one of their early claims to fame when they were a backyard party band was that they could play these songs at this speed

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