This descending fours lick is my nemesis

Playing Technique
#21

I might have misunderstood, but I don’t think that does remove the double slant. You still have 3 notes on the first string which requires a change in slant, followed by a single note on the 2nd string, which again needs a slant change. Starting with UWPS would just reverse which parts of the pattern are DWPS or UWPS. Someone else might want to check my thinking is right here.

Edit: I get it now. It’s because of starting with a downstroke when using UWPS. I think starting with an upstroke when DWPS would have a similar effect (in reverse)

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#22

That’s what I meant, yes. I probably should have clarified that. Starting with DWPS and an upstroke should be similar, the difference being that the string changes that require a slant change would be outside. That’s less comfortable for me, but it might work better for others.

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#23

There’s (hopefully) a happy end to this story.
Since posting, which prompted me to sit down and work out what the slant changes were meant to be, I’ve realised I wasn’t putting them in the right spot, as well as not doing the quick double slant at the start.

I’ve since been working slowly on getting it right and have brought my upper limit of cleanly playing it from about 135 or 140 bpm up to 150 or so. It’s not yet up to where I’d like it, but that’s progress after a week or so of a frustrating lack of improvement.

Thanks for all the encouragement and suggestions. I’ll give some of the other methods suggested a try too and see which works out best.

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#24

here’s some discoveries I’ve made I will try to summarize re asc and dsc 4 patterns:

  1. when playing a strict asc or dsc 4’s patterns, as Sorc described, you start w UWPS and alternate your pickslant exactly as he showed in his diagram, the same exact procedure also works ascending.
  2. you can start #1 with DWPS either dsc or asc too as mentioned, but you must then start with an upstroke
  3. if you prefer to start a 4’s pattern w a DWPS on a downstroke, you must alter the pattern sequence by adding say 1 or 3 notes to the start of the strict 4’s pattern like:
    D_________U___________D
  • 12 15 14 12----14 12 ---------12
    ----------------- 15---------15 13—15 13 12
    or
    15 14 12 15 14 12
    ----------------------- 15 etc
  • the ascending version of this works exactly the same starting w DWPS and a downstroke for ex:
    D ________U__________D
    ----------------10--------10 12----10 12 14…etc
    14 10 12 14----12 14-------- 14
  1. #1 can also be played as described in Antigravity, with a UWSW (upward swipe)+ (upstroke start) for a strict descending 4’s 3nps scale…and with a DWSW (downstroke start) for a strict ascending 4’s 3nps scale

sorry for the ghetto presentation…maybe this helps somebody crack this age-old dilemma; I’ve been working on this for about a year and it finally seems to be sinking in…

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#25

A great exercise for developing descending fours could be the “Smoke Signals solo” from Nuno Bettencourt. I am not 100% sure if he picks every note on the record and it´s pretty fast (try to play that solo picking every note, I think it´s a great (and funny) exercise).

There is an early live version on YouTube when Extreme played live in Azores in 1987. I´ve never seen Nuno play that lick again in a live situation (maybe at the end of “Play with me”)

Anyway, descending fours is always a quite challenging lick and Troy helped us a lot in this area!

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#26

Thanx a bunch!!! that REALLY worked for me. I always used to start this pattern with a downstroke + DWPS with a tendency to miss the third note. :smiley:

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#27

The sole note on the first string that starts the 3rd set of four notes is the problem, at least for me. I have to either change pick slant to catch this note or precede it with a pulloff on the second string that give the pick time to loop around for the requisite upstroke, both of which “breaks the rule”. I played around with eliminating that note and this is what I came up with. It shifts up to the problem note on the second string and the cycle repeats. It preserves DWP and, oddly, moves up the neck as it descends (and vice versa).

image
image1162×799 173 KB

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#28

It’s been two years since I started this thread and funnily enough was playing this lick just today. For those still having trouble, practice does eventually pay off- I can play it up to about 175-180bpm now.

The interesting thing is, I don’t think it was practicing this specific lick that got me there. It was more learning the mechanics. I recommend the ‘punisher’ lick that Ben Eller has as a warmup (see YouTube). That got me practicing the string switching moves quickly which can then be applied elsewhere.

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#29

I’m new to pickslanting and have been struggling to think how to apply it to Ben Eller’s “The Punsher”. How do you manage? I can’t think of any way that will end back where you started with the pick when you get to the next 1-2-3-4 sequence on the next string.

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#30

The punisher involves all the possible directions for pickslanting. Assuming you’re a USX player (I still struggle with this new terminology) starting with a downstroke, the first four notes on the thickest E string just require the same USX motion, but after the 5th note, which is the first note on the A string, a change in pickslant is then required to come back to the E string for the 6th note, then you play 3 notes on the 6th string, which is an odd number, so again the pickslant flips (back to the original USX direction, although in practice I flip immediately back), then you play another 2 notes on the A string (and even number, so no need for a change in slant), then back to the E string for another 2 notes (again, no change), then 3 notes on the A string (odd number, so a change), then 1 on the E string so again flips slant, then the final 4 notes are back to USX.

Then the whole pattern repeats on the A and D strings and then the next two.
Hard to explain. Much easier to watch the video or just do it. With time it becomes automatic and I’ve found the skill extends to other patterns so I don’t really need to think about it now.

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#31

I also mixed things up with it. Play it descending, play it as triplets with accents (much harder), play it starting on an offbeat. All of this then trains you in multiple skills at once (timing/rhythm, accenting and pickslanting).

#32

I thought I would never figure this out then I found this buried. This is good stuff, thank you.

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#33

This is the only way I do 4s now, so much easier IMHO. You may be the first person to see what I posted lol.

#34

This should be basic Yngwie loop around speed building repertoire material. I am fixing to write down this pattern I got in mixed minor to get to the mixed minor Yngwie box. :muscle::rofl::metal:

#35

You could change up the way it’s played and just do straight minor until the end, but that fingering helps free your brain up and to figure it out as a whole more simply.

#36

If anyone really wants a challenge, try these using strict alternate picking! I’ve been practising these for nearly a year and still haven’t mastered it. One of the hardest things on guitar i have ever tried is to do these descending fours at 190 plus bpm using alternate picking cleanly. :slight_smile:

Also, are we sure Yngwie always uses the pull offs befire the string change? (I have heard at least one example where the last 2 notes before the string change are picked- at least to my ear there is definite pick sound).

#37

I think you gotta look at how fast you are economical style versus alternate and make the best judgement. I know my hands cannot take the abuse so I do gypsy style down up down down up down with thumb movement during ascending stuff, and I’ve adapted either economy descending if it’s pure scale run meaning up down up up down up, funny because this is flamenco economy picado, or the down up pull off if it’s some criss cross string skipping. Why fight it just shred! I am just fast economical hands down so I don’t care about the strict picking.

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#38

Another thing I’ve heard him do is the loop around diminished tetrachord lick twice into
20-19-17–20-19-17-16–19-17-16–17-16. Then string changes after an up, no pull off as the picking works in this instance, listen to fugue off his concerto album second solo lick.

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#39

Great quote!! Agree with your points too. The reason i am trying to alternate pick these is simply for the challenge. I’m enjoying trying to see if i can do it. But if i was going for my fastest speed i agree alternate picking is not what I’d be doing haha. It is quite punishing. The failure rate is very high on attempts.

The hardest note for me by FAR is the first note of the string change which using alternate picking is an upstroke. So using your great soundslice example above the problem note is the 4th one in the sequence- the 8th fret b string note. This for me is the hardest to get cleanly at speed. I can do it. But not every time.

#40

https://www.soundslice.com/slices/8Y5Dc/

I wrote another one for the obsessed guitar players.

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