This descending fours lick is my nemesis

Playing Technique
#1

Does anyone else struggle with descending fours using TWPS?

I’m predominantly a downward pick slanter and usually start this run with a downstroke but I find it really hard to make it clean and often find I’m playing ‘air swings’ (missing notes),especially on the change to the next lowest string if I’m playing it above about 140bpm. I think it’s a struggle because at the start there are quick slant changes after the 3rd and 4th notes and then after the 9th note you change to a long period of upward pickslanting, which doesn’t feel as natural. I also wonder if my tracking down the strings is an issue, so I’m trying to work on that at the moment too. I’ve marked in the slant changes (which took me quite a while to work out!)

Anyone have any tips?

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3 notes per string and DWPS
#2

You probably need to get more comfortable with UWPS, if it doesn’t feel that good. I would also start the lick with UWPS to avoid the two successive slant changes.

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#3

Would starting with UWPS avoid the successive changes? It’s still an uneven number of notes per string, so you’d still have to do two changes after the three notes and the single note.
I have tried it starting with a upstroke once or twice, but maybe I should practice that more…

#4

If you start with DWPS, you need to change the pickslant on the third and fourth notes. But starting with UWPS means that the downstroke on the third note will work and then you only need to change the slant on the fourth note.

#5

This pattern is my nemesis too! It’s a shame because it plays such a crucial role in so many great solos.

In addition to the TWPS issues, how does your fretting hand handle this pattern? I’ve discovered that if fretted the conventional “one finger per fret” way, the pattern may put the 3rd and 4th fretting hand fingers under significant stress, which can limit speed and accuracy. But when I dropped the 4th finger entirely from fretting any notes and just used the 3rd finger, it start sounding a little better.

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#6

Tricky pattern for sure!

With downward pickslanting, what about something like this?

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How Would You Pick This?
#7

I swipe the hell out of that one.

Edited to note: I mean, it doesn’t sound that great without a lot of gain, but…

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#8

This is a good warmup exercise… being able to switch slants quickly is the key. For some reason… ascending was more difficult for me.

I am curious how you guys feel about doing this same exercise with 3s’? (either ascending or descending)

I remember being stuck on that when I was using 2wps.

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#9

The most efficient solution would probably be to play descending fours with UWPS beginning on an upstroke and ascending fours with DWPS beginning with a downstroke, using swiping for the outside string changes in both patterns.

I play both patterns using TWPS, I don’t think I swipe very often. For whatever reason, I’m more comfortable playing both patterns beginning on a downstroke. This might just be down to having spent more time practicing beginning with a downstroke.

I’ve been try to avoid playing straight ascending and descending fours, I think both patterns are cliché. I much prefer the effect of alternating between fours and fives in the Shawn Lane style. I prefer how the lick sounds, and the lick can be played using one-way slanting.

For DWPS, the descending pattern is

|-9-7-6---7-6-------|-------------------|
|-------9-----9-7-6-|-9-7-6---7-6-------|
|-------------------|-------9-----9-7-6-|
|-------------------|-------------------|
|-------------------|-------------------|
|-------------------|-------------------|
  u d u d d u d u d   u d u d d u d u d  (etc)

and the ascending pattern is

|-------------------|-------------------|
|-------------------|-------------------|
|-------------------|-------------------|
|-------------------|-------6-7---6-7-9-|
|-------6-7---6-7-9-|-6-7-9-----9-------|
|-6-7-9-----9-------|-------------------|
  u d u d u d d u d   u d u d u d d u d  (etc)

Both can easily be modified to fit UWPS by switching the order of the four and five, so for UWPS we have the descending pattern

|-9-7-6-----6-------|-------------------|
|-------9-7---9-7-6-|-9-7-6-----6-------|
|-------------------|-------9-7---9-7-6-|
|-------------------|-------------------|
|-------------------|-------------------|
|-------------------|-------------------|
  d u d u d u u d u   d u d u d u u d u  (etc)

and the ascending pattern is

|-------------------|-------------------|
|-------------------|-------------------|
|-------------------|-------------------|
|-------------------|-------6-----6-7-9-|
|-------6-----6-7-9-|-6-7-9---7-9-------|
|-6-7-9---7-9-------|-------------------|
  d u d u u d u d u   d u d u u d u d u  (etc)

I also like Shawn’s approach to descending fours which involves a lot of legato (hammers from nowhere and descending hammers), shown here:

|-9 7 6---7-6-----6-------|-------------------------|
|-------9-----9-7---9-7-6-|-9 7 6---7-6-----6-------|
|-------------------------|-------9-----9-7---9-7-6-|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
  d u h h d u h h d h h h   d u h h d u h h d h h h  (etc)

This method displaces the accents, and makes the pattern sound less cliché to me.

@hamsterman, for ascending and descending threes, both can be played easily with swybrid picking (using the pick and middle finger)

Here is the descending pattern

|-9-7-6-7-6---6-----------|-------------------------|
|-----------9---9-7-9-7-6-|-9-7-6-7-6---6-----------|
|-------------------------|-----------9---9-7-9-7-6-|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
  u d u d u u m d u d u d   u d u d u u m d u d u d  (etc)

and here is the ascending pattern

|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|-----------6---6-7-6-7-9-|
|-----------6---6-7-6-7-9-|-6-7-9-7-9---9-----------|
|-6-7-9-7-9---9-----------|-------------------------|
  u d u d u m d d u d u d   u d u d u m d d u d u d  (etc)

Unfortunately, neither ascending or descending fours has a perfect solution with swybrid picking. You could use ascending/descending threes in place of ascending/descending fours, as both are 12 note patterns. Again, this would give the displaced accent sound I like!

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Swiping and ascending 3s with dwps
#10

I do like hybriding this pattern… but I tend to stick with hybrid/legato… I just like the sound of it… its very liquidy… and its a good fretting warm-up.

But what I was referring to was pure alternate-picking for the ascending/descending 3’s. And I don’t think it requires cross-picking, but would require doing the ‘gilbert pattern’ from outside and inside.

I’ve been on a quest to remove my outside/inside bias over the last year… and the ascending/descending 3’s was a nice little tool.

#11

Interesting. I find ascending quite easy. I’ve wondered if it’s something to do with whether you find UWPS or DWPS more comfortable or whether I swipe on the ascending version. One day I’ll have to get myself some sort of magnet and have a proper look.

#12

My fretting hand is ok with it. I did have issues at one point but have been working on my legato so that with this particular line it’s the right hand that is struggling

#13

Stuff like this is DEFINITELY a challenge. You are not alone!

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#14

image

How’s this? Other than the one swipe and one sweep in the first measure it’s all DWPS. The position shifts are what’s comfortable to me but they should be easy to move around.

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#15

2nd semiquaver of beat 2 can also be an upstroke, but I like the tone of this Yngwie-sort of solution.

For alternate picking OP, there are three steps to the lick:

  1. Beat 1: 3 notes on one string, 1 note on the next = some UWPS in the string transition between 3rd and 4th note
  2. Beat 2: 2 notes + two notes = DWPS
  3. Beat 3: 1 note + 3 notes = some UWPS in the string transition between 1st and 2nd notes…

…and repeat in the next string pair.

If you’re Achilles heel is the inside string changes in steps one and 3, you only have one problem to focus on to make the whole pattern work, so I’d devise exercises that purposefully and exaggeratedly address that one thing, and then bring the rest of the pattern in.

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#16

I think most people feel more comfortable with ascending.

For me, I think it was just neglecting to ever learn ascending outside picking… when I started with 2WPS… I’d use it for descending inside picking… but I didnt much use it for ascending… instead I kept defaulting to economy picking whenever I was ascending. So its been years of neglect for me… and now Im trying to make up for it.

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#17

Yes, I was thinking I’d have to try it in pieces. The first ‘chunk’ of 8 notes or so I can do pretty quickly and cycle through again from the start but the second part after those 8 notes is usually where it falls apart for me

Part of the overall difficulty I think comes from the slant changes appearing at irregular intervals so it isn’t as predictable as it should be.

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#18

They’re not irregular though. There’s 12 notes to the pattern and the slant changes happen at notes 3-4 and 9-10 every time. If you think of the lick as being in 3/4 you might sense the pattern more intuitively.

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#19

Yes, that’s true but the way it starts there’s a double slant that doesn’t occur elsewhere. I suppose repeating the first 3 notes would eliminate that first slant change and make it entirely regular

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#20

That’s another reason to start with UWPS. Not only it removes the double slant change, but it also makes the pattern completely consistent.

EDIT: This should make it clear.
descending_fours

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