Thoughts on Anton Oparin's claim about Paul Gilbert? Any truth to it?

Playing Technique
#21

1: To the Op’s question regarding Gilbert. It’s highly unlikely. You have to look at this rationally. Gilbert grew up in a small farming community in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania. There was likely very little development in that area in the 70’s, let alone anyone to consult regarding advanced sports medicine or body physics in general, especially anything that would translate to guitar playing. Even if there were, this takes resources he likely didn’t have. He often sites not even being able to find heavy metal records back then, and it was his father, who built his first guitars for him. He even has mentioned selling his instruments when he was at GIT so he could buy a cheap car to travel back and forth during his first introduction to Mke Varney’s studio. This doesn’t strike me as a family with the resources for PT consultation, especially for back then.

In his Mr. Big days, when he had more resources available, it could have been a possibility, but we don’t see any real drastic change in his playing technique from that era. It’s been very consistent up until recent. In fact the only real difference you really see in Paul’s technique is very recent, and I have a suspicion he may have devolved arthritis. So if any of it were true, than this would have been a recent thing like two years recent, as part of a physical therapy plan, and not anything that helped him develop his picking at a younger age. He for sure wears hearing aids now.

2: Whether RoME in this sense is applicable or not is irrelevant really. RoME doesn’t even have to be applicable to guitar playing in reality for you to be able to sell it as such. Most of your audience doesn’t know any better anyway and likely won’t question it if you showcase it with conviction, and even if they did, its is all so very anecdotal, that it’s hard to refute. Anecdotal evidence is perfect for salesmanship, because all you need then is that conviction, and to showcase your ability, and you can sell it. Again this isn’t to say it is or isn’t relevant just that it doesn’t need to be.

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#22

Great post @Fossegrim

I still think he was joking when he mentioned Paul paying for this knowledge lol!

I’ve been thinking a good bit about the whole RoME/antagonistic muscles lately. In light of Tom’s opinions and what Troy always says about each individual needing to feel things for themselves, I think the most important thing is to make sure whatever motion we are using feels good and does not carry tension. Without a laboratory, how else can we really know?

The claims/salesmanship is not really important to me so much as if there is something I can walk away with. The only remaining question I have is how integral this wrist dance is to Anton’s system? Like, is it just an exercise he teaches people because it promotes the above mentioned optimizations? Or, is it actually present in some fashion as a core part of the technique? I don’t feel like I see the latter, unless it’s just really subtle. But then again, I am notoriously bad at identifying motions lol!

#23

Well I would be a little cautious there too. I wouldn’t really think too much about the intellectual aspects of it, and how many options there are to employ, more so worry about the fundamental picture of “does it work for me”, and “can I stick with it consistently enough to develop it”. To me these things are better for retrospective analysis. I get that some people really love the cookbook approach to things, and it is attractive to think that if I put everything together in an exact formulation i’m guaranteed to get the desired result systematically.

Also I think the wording of no tension is a bit off too, and I admit in my younger days people using this description threw me off, because this is a very relative thing. I don’t think there is ever “no” tension, there always some, just not a laborious amount.

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#24

Yep, agreed. I mean specifically the type of tension where if we do it for a long-ish duration, we feel like a lactic acid buildup.

#25

That is the funniest description I’ve read in a while.

#26

Hrrmm yeah I sound as though I’m a valley girl. Should have said

We feel a buildup of lactic acid

Not sure how else to describe the burn that happens when I play at higher speeds for longer than I have control over.

#27

I feel lactic acidosis just by being alive.

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#28

Damn dude you’ve had some dark posts lately lol!

#29

What do you mean lately?

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#30

I do wish people these days would stop pretending to blow everything off as a “joke”. Have an opinion and stick to it. The whole, “I was just joking” thing doesn’t work for me when making serious claims.

#31

I don’t think Paul withheld any information or had secretive high level training (in the 70’s in the boondocks no less)

I think the more likely answer is that there some bias confirmation coming from Anton.

I do this, and so does PG therefore ‘that’s’ why we’re good.

From what I can tell, the ‘wrist dance’ seems to involve a rotational aspect more than just wrist. Keep the pinky heel on the bridge, use a rotational movement but try and keep the pick moving in a straight line. It will look like your arm is moving up and down slightly despite a forearm component.

When either Anton or PG play fast this ‘wrist dance’ is completely absent, so I fail to understand it’s usefulness and seriously doubt it’s the secret to endurance.

Hell, look at McLaughlin who is incredibly fast (and a deviation/wrist player) but he looks quite forced/tense at times but his speed and endurance are amazing (same for Di Meola)

I think if there was some missing aspect (like the wrist dance) someone like Troy or the team would of stumbled upon it a long time ago.

As an aside, most players I like (with great stamina) seem to be USX and more forearm based (insert good Metal or Gypsy guitarist here)

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#32

Sports medicine is still rather primitive comparatively despite the funding that gets thrown at it. If that is true now, just think about what it was in the 70’s and 80’s. Now add that to what you would have possibly been able to find in rural Pennsylvania.

That should put this to rest.

As an aside, most people who develop a good picking hand naturally, never think about why they do so. Because they can do it, there’s no reason to put it under the magnifying glass, as there is no problem to solve. Because they are also likely to practice a ton as well, they also likely believe it is just the hard work paying off.

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#33

I didn’t read every reply, but Paul did change his picking style once he got to GIT. His picking hand thumb is double jointed and he used to hold the pick nearly vertical with his thumb bent backwards and essentially saw the strings when he picked. The first Racer X record was recorded that way. If you can find early videos of him, you can see that technique. He realized once he got to GIT that for longevity, he needed to change his pick grip to protect his thumb. This could be what Anton is referring to. Paul did study under some greats at GIT, Frank Gambale is one that comes to mind.

#34

He used the Shawn lane reverse grip for a while. He even demonstrates this in that MI video commercial on YouTube. He stopped because his thumb started to hurt but it was not under the guidance of a medical professional or researchers.

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#35

This sounds like a throw away comment from Oparin.

Observing other high level players is enough to cause big changes in your technique. It doesn’t take conscious critical thinking, just observation.

I made many of my biggest musical and technical leaps when I worked setting up live shows. I saw things up close, from different angles. I heard things that you don’t here in a recording. This all helped me immensely and I didn’t need to analyze it, or discuss it, or even consciously think about it.

#36

Anton wasn’t kidding about that line. It wasn’t a joke, it was 100% serious.

As far as the Gilbert speculation, Paul had a formula in the 80s and 90s which enabled him to develop techniques to play nearly anything on the instrument imaginable with insane control and articulation. He has admitted this in an extremely obscure magazine interview that is sitting a few feet from me as I write this. There is also another interview where he lets slip some critical details about his technical approach. I would agree with Anton that what Paul publicly discloses about his technical knowledge is likely 10% of what he actually knows.

Whether or not he had help? Hmm…

As far as the wrist dance? Don’t worry about it. You won’t be able to develop it without coaching. Just do the best you can to stay relaxed and in control. Some elbow/wrist is fine and is just about all you can hope for without controlling almost every aspect of your practice session.

#37

I’m curious. Got any sources?

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#38

Screenshot? Photo? Dictation? Fax it to me and I’ll type it up? Semaphore the name of the magazine while hiding each digit of the publication year and issue date in a series of advertisements for wool-based underwear in the New York Times?

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#39

What I’m kind of curious about is if Anton has any students that have honed their technique to an extremely high level like his.

I’ve seen from students who’s playing has improved, for sure. I know you’re a student and have quite a bit of skill, although I’ve only seen a couple short videos of your playing - so maybe you’re up there.

If there are any out there that are approaching his playing ability after training this would definitely reinforce the claim that this can be coached, at least to a talented person.

In the case of Paul Gilbert you have Buckethead - who apparently had some limited number of lessons from Paul.
Russ Parish - who is quite excellent and plays with Steel Panther - he might be the best of the group and looks to exhibit the ‘wrist dance’:

Joey Taffola:

Nicole Couch of Phantom Blue:

What’s interesting is they all are able to play things require 2 way escapes, string skipping etc exceptionally well. This certainly indicates there might be something to Paul knowing how to impart the ability to play the sort of lines he plays, although maybe it would require a lot of in person coaching to be effective - which would make sense with Anton’s teaching model as I understand it.

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#40

Satchel was his roommate for a period of time.

Paul doesn’t however utilize two way escapes all the time in reality. Paul often is a swiper.

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