Thumb index picking technique - Ben Wilshire

Playing Technique
#62

I just don’t think I am designed to pick that way - hahah I will have to stick with what I am working on for now; Pronated DSX, wrist propelled - It’s working out well. I don’t think i would have the first clue as to how to combine those movements. I guess the closest inkling I might have is how I kind of regress back to elbow from wrist…

I think it’s great you guys have this nailed down, really excellent - like I said I couldn’t get it to work really so I sort of dismissed it. Looks like those who do it, do it well!

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#63

haha very few have really nailed it down. but we can probably refine some of it to use in our playing with what time we have to learn.

this can get quite complex marrying two picking motions like this as it adds complexity that you have to be aware of rhythmically, how to get in and out of and back to the tried and true one way escape. but this is a very solid path of technique worth sharing glad @NCASO found it and shared it many can benefit from it.

and i just finished the whole video so towards the end he describes the rotation motion. its not fully thought of as the entire forearm rotation on its own, but more from the thumb and index as a unit doing more of the motion on its own with slight forearm rotation I think this is the similar motion Michael Romeo might be doing on his picked licks on the Young Guitar DVD.

#64

yeah, there’s nothing nailed down here…lol

I created this thread to take a look at this movement and the players who excel at it.

I have found that players that use both alternate and economy picking alot in their playing will incorporate some level of thumb as a means to facilitate the lines they play.

Players like Malmsteen, Romeo, Filho, Graham, Stump, etc. all play economy/alt lines … and they all rely on a subtle thumb movement to help…

its just an “outgrowth” of economy picking imo. Now players such as Ohmura and Filho use the movement deliberately with great results.

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#65

And really if you dont use thumb and index to break the plane of the strings then it will likely be some sort of wrist extension to pull the pick out of the plane of the strings during the flawed motion string change for whatever one way escape a player uses. There maybe other ways of doing it but these seem like the most obvious ways.

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#66

i was going through the motions today looking at all the different escape hatches and just that first 3 strokes of the single string pattern

downstroke (thumb index only as place holder for forearm rotation)
upstroke (thumb flexion index in)
downstroke (thumb extension index out)

pick is outside the plane of the strings

probably for myself that is one of the most powerful fragments of my techniques. it helps you escape the string on a downstroke.

now can i incorporate that at high tempo i dont know yet, maybe on certain phrasing I can, maybe not, but the technique appears very bulletproof. however to ingrain it into my playing may never happen, nevertheless the power in that takayoshi technique seems really solid. utilizing this will require extreme consistency, and the only other technique that really opened my eyes to extreme consistency was rest stroke. I don’t know how well I can get with consistency on that specific group of motions inside my playing. the problem with the consistency thing is for rest stroke its simple to keep track of in your brain as you are mainly focusing on one motion, the rest, with this technique you have to keep track of the thumb flexion and extension move when you need it. so it is like keeping track of both the rest stroke, and the thumb flexion and extension moves in real time. without knowing the phrase before hand that move itself to me is a bit useless, however if you bake in a phrase with it you probably could get some things to warp speed with some grinding.

to be more specific you need to know these two moves. the second one has two variations, whether or not it is possible to use these at warp tempo i have no clue, but I take it takayoshi was able to so it probably just takes alot of playing phrases with these incorporated to really get them fast.

Screenshot 2023-02-08 at 14-06-59 Edit Untitled Soundslice
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and honestly now that i have been more aware of the motion, you have to approach it knowing if you flex the thumb in you have to flex it out if you want to go into some other motion. with my hands in particular when i do more forearm rotation my thumb is more in an extension setup, so if i go into this motion in order to exit i have to be aware that if i am in thumb flexion i have to do a down stroke to get out of it. this means even if you don’t use the down stroke escape hatch, and you desire to maintain the pick trapped on the downstroke that you still must be aware that when you do a up stroke thumb flexion, you will have to do the opposing motion to get set back up if you desire to go into another picking mechanic.

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#67

Claus is an incredible teacher, and he truly is one of the few guitar instructors on YouTube that gives insights in practice phycology, breaking things down regarding technique mastery on the guitar.

You have to have a level of ability first, because the things he suggests, won’t help the novice player.

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#68

Yes Claus is an amazing guitarist. When I watch Tom Hess or Mike Philipovv play they also look like they play extremely well. But there many people which will warn you against Tom Hess and his disciple. You really have to be wary of people that guarantee results. Even Yngwie has said there are no shortcuts. It’s blood, sweat, and tears.

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#69

Claus/Guitar Mastery have sound guitar practice advice and great courses. His “guarantee” is simply that if you put the time in, correctly, and learn how to FOCUS intensely on specific areas of your playing… you will improve!

Don’t misinterpret what Claus teaches as simply as “shortcuts”. They are ways to teach yourself to utilize your practice time more effectively, by reducing the amount of volume of material you want to learn. I listened to his videos for years and bought several of his courses. All fairly priced and very sound.

You shouldn’t lump Guitar Mastery in with Tom Hess/Mike P, who btw have some good content also. I don’t like their marketing tactics, especially the creepy things i’ve read that Hess does.

let’s keep this thread on its original topic. Thumb/index picking technique.

#70

I am going to chime in on this thread, hopefully nobody gets mad or anything - all I can do is relay my experiences with it.

Okay, so I have been playing for quite some time and over the course of many years there’s some stuff picking-wise that I am very good at, and then there’s a bunch of stuff that’s extremely challenging that I’d LIKE to be able to alternate pick, but no matter how I attack it it just isn’t happening.

I’ve tried the thumb/index finger thing on and off and with the pad or the trigger grip, there’s some stuff that doesn’t work out for me;

  1. Tempo. I can get pretty fast with it, but not faster than about 16ths at 170bpm or so.

  2. Dynamic control. There is none, I feel like I have to really “muscle” it to get the same tone at faster tempos let alone super loud notes.

  3. To achieve speed and/or louder tone - that “muscling” adds a lot of pressure on my finger. I am strong AF so after a long practice session (I like to play guitar) my finger is in AGONY.

  4. More to the point, I have become accutely aware that the heart and soul of my picking issues is systematic tension, and that “muscling” adds to that.

  5. I naturally tend towards Elbow with a pronated form. 16ths @ 200BPM is actually pretty easily attainable with that setup. Lately I have been pursuing wrist motion with that same pronated form and I took it up to 16ths @ 200bpm this morning which is way faster than I need to be, lots of gas in the tank I suppose.

  6. Connection to that inner rhythmic pulse is a bit weak…

So for me it’s kind of a no-brainer; What I naturally gravitate towards is way faster right out of the gate, doesn’t hurt and doesn’t contribute to any kind of unnecessary tension or pain.

Anyways, that’s just me and my experience - good luck to those who pursue it!

#71

I found Chris’ explanation of it really interesting. I’ve spent almost zero time trying the thumb/index motion stuff just because I can’t get any speed with it. Once I heard this, it made me realize why. I wasn’t doing it correctly. In fact we may want to just call it thumb motion and drop the whole notion of the index because that joint seems to move just because it comes along for the ride.

I have it queued up. The parts pertinent to this discussion are from 9:16 - 9:35 (the whole thing’s good though, great job teaching in the whole video)

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#72

Right, but what is crazy is you can mental switch your brain to moving the index, as this is how some players unlocked more to it like Takayoshi did with his technique. Sure the thumb itself when flexed in can theoretically extend out on a different angle as the flexion, I see that with my own thumb index technique(this can allow you to go wherever you need inside or outside the plane of the strings. this is also the same for the thumb flexion it can also go at an angle to get the stroke inside or outside the plane of the strings). However I do see how the thumb is most important as this is the digit used in flamenco and classical rest stroke, so I would say develop this one over the index first. Although it appears that in classical and flamenco it has nothing to do with flexion and extension at the joint, but more from the lower portion of the thumb. But you can perceive it from the index as well, I did in the beginning before learning the rest stroke. However now I can easily feel it mentally from my mind, and only perceive it as the thumb. And I think from developing the rest stroke technique with the plectrum pick for about 2 years now has helped me to unlock that coordination of it more clearly.

And last night I was talking with Scottulus that if you basically just draw tiny clockwise circles (I am usx and clockwise feels most natural) with the pick, just think you are scribbling circles with a pencil, and watch how you can dbx with that motion. Here is where it won’t net you speed though is that the motion draws the complete circle, this in and out of the thumb/index flexion/extension is basically a curved line, as is the same with forearm rotation one way escape, which will be faster because you aren’t drawing the entire circle. nevertheless it is a very solid dbx motion, and feels super easy with the drawback of you probably won’t get it beyond 9 to 10 notes per second because you are creating wasted movement by drawing the complete circle motion. If thinking of drawing little circles doesn’t work, try thinking of it like you are stirring something with just the index and thumb.

#73

Wow, just found this video of Chris, great example of his thumb technique, he can really burn with it!

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#74

That is what I said I assumed the mechanic actually was, way up earlier in this thread. Not to flex or anything. :wink:

I will have to give it an actual go at some point. I can move my thumb that way quite fast off the guitar, but it becomes awkward when actually holding a pick. I’ve noticed he appears to hold the pick very loosely with a lot of flop - might need to experiment with that.

#75

Let’s see [scrolling up…] Yeah I guess you did! Well done and well spotted :wink: I usually skim-read when I hear people rattle off specific muscles outside of the main bodybuilding ones I know lol!

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#76

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/nsgKrSiN9iA

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#77

That lick :exploding_head: | Tablature for MEMBERS - YouTube

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#78

Damn I can’t slow down the YouTube short! WHAT IS HE PLAYING? Lol

#79

@carranoj25 I reformatted the link so you can slow it down now:

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#80

Great topic.

I use the thumb/ index technique a lot. In many of my accuracy experiments, this one seems to result in better accuracy for me at high speeds. YMMV

I used to think you couldn’t play fast with it - but obviously you can - plenty of amazing examples of this in this thread.

Is it not recommended in CTC? I’m pretty sure I sure I saw it discussed in the Yngwie videos when I was going through them!

Also in the OP video is the discussion of the ultex picks - I got onto these a year or so back - amazing.

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#81

Check out this short from Cesario. He very clearly is using wrist motion, with subtle thumb/index movement. To me this, illustrates what Chris Brooks wrote and has said about the technique in the past, in that the thumb/index movement is “secondary function” of wrist motion.

The wrist USX motion is the prime mover with the thumb/index following, adding accents and dynamics and facilitating string crossing. I see this in all of the players who use this movement.

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