Tommo's ascending troubles, feedback welcome!

Took me a while, but I finally got down to it! However this time I couldn’t resist and I cherry-picked the best takes from the last video :sweat_smile:

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It looks like you use forearm rotation (+ Wrist deviation, but I definitely see rotation) for every Upstroke string change. This means that your base picking motion and your string change motion are different even when the lick/line would only require 1 Way Pick Slanting (and thus only Wrist deviation from a Supinated setup); this could be a possible reason for the awkward feeling of the movement (you’re switching mechanics every string change- and this happens more frequently on the 2NPS figures)

Perhaps your arm position is not in the correct angle to allow 9 o clock Wrist deviation to escape the strings on Upstrokes. (I have a feeling that this is because you like the feeling of rest strokes so you place your hand flatter and use a motion path that allows Trapped pickstrokes).

I know that the best way for me to work on my Wrist motion was to start Alternate picking 1NPS figures (Crosspicking). I did this by alternate picking triads, Spread Triads, Shell Voicings, drop 2 Voicings, and intervallic patterns and then just moving them up the neck diatonically. This forces your arm to be in a (Supinated) position that allows (only) Wrist Movement to Escape the Strings in both ends and then from there you can start to isolate each half of the movement to get a feel for Wrist only Pickslanting.

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Have you ever tried keeping the pick slant relatively stable and swiping through the strings?

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@DJ_Ddawg, @7th11th, I think your analysis of my mechanics is spot on! I have to agree that there seems to be a tiny forearm rotation component on my upstroke string changes, so I haven’t yet attained wrist-only picklanting as I originally thought.

I also have to agree that 2nps passages may be a weak point of this hand/arm setup, which if I remember correclty I called “mode 2” in another thread, and which I would say has a primary neutral-ish orientation.
By default I seem to do fully trapped pickstrokes + occasional escapes for string changes. For some reason, I have a slight preference for UWPS (or escaped downstrokes) in this setup - but it seems to work fine also for TWPS down to 3nps passages. Actually, if I start with upstrokes I can also do 2nps stuff no problem.

I also have another hand setup that I called “mode 1”, and it is more supinated - I would call it primary DWPS or “escaped upstrokes” in modern notation :wink: . Here downstroke-first pentatonics become easier, but 3nps scale playing becomes more messy, and I tend to systematically swipe all the “ascending outside” string changes - in a way that is not subtle at all. I guess it is difficult to have a single hand position that makes everything feel easy - I seem to always end up with one “weak” string change out of the possible 4 combinations :sweat_smile:

@WhammyStarScream Yep, I did experiment with swiping as well. In fact, I find it almost unavoidable in certain more complicated patterns (e.g. descending 4s a la Batio) and especially past certain speeds. How much I feel it/hear it still varies on a daily basis, I think I should work more on my left hand muting!

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Man, your playing is tight! It’s definitely working out for you. In the last video, I can finally spot some elbow.
So your mode 2 includes elbow. That explains to me your default fully trapped pickstrokes and the slight tendency toward UWPS, because this exactly the plane in which the elbow moves, if the shoulder is positioned normally. I have the same setup as you, once my “6th gear” kicks in, the elbow is there. I also have the exact same problems and benefits from my technique, although my stuff isn’t half as polished as yours. I would love to hear your opinion on this, is there a way to play true DWPS if the elbow is involved?

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That’s a good question! @troy posted an “elbow DWPS” video on youtube some time ago, but I think he later clarified that it might not have been fully elbow - actually I missed a lot of that discussion so I’m not sure about the details :thinking: . I’ll link it here even though it will put my previous videos to shame :smile::smile::smile:

I don’t know man, If you had better lighting and an arm-hair wig…

EDIT: Ok I totally missed that thread! It looks awesome, but it is inconclusive. Seems like even Troy is not aware of what he is doing exactly. Thx for the heads up!

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Unless I am mistaken about the way the elbow works, “elbow dwps” is just not possible given the way most people hold a guitar. As to what I’m doing, my best guess is it’s actually forearm. But if you’re asking can the elbow do dwps, the technical answer would have to be “no”.

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Hey Troy, thx for chiming in and clearing that up. It is what I thought to, because I could not make it work, no matter how. That’s too bad actually, because my wrist/rotation movements are simply not very fast.

Yeah @troy, @7th11th, @DJ_Ddawg, thanks for clarifying all this. A posteriori it all seems almost obvious, I wonder why I didn’t get it on my own :sweat_smile:

I’d say that, about one year after the creation of this thread, my ascending “troubles” have been finally understood!

At the same time, they’ve been mitigated quite a lot by now! A 130bpm ascending scale would have been science fiction for me a couple of years ago :sunglasses::metal:

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Tommo, seriously great progress man. Really fluid and Gilbert-like sound on those runs. Thanks for the inspiration.

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Thank you very much @guitarenthusiast! As a next step, I would like to introduce a few more options in terms of palm-muting and add more comfort to my pentatonics playing.

With the default hand position of the above videos (which I called my Mode 2 in other threads) I probably have the best results in terms of 3nps scales / shreddy cliches playing, but I am limited to an unmuted sound and 2nps pentatonics (starting on a downstroke) are not that comfy as you can see at the end of the videos.

So I am now trying to get two-way pickslanting going also with my mode “1”, where palm muting and 2nps pentatonics are much easier. However, in that mode I seem to have a pronounced dwps bias which makes two-way playing more difficult. If/when I get it to work I may post an update :slight_smile:

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@tommo

where r u now with the 2nps stuff? Im sort of at the beginning of starting to work on mine at the moment since its lagging way behind my 3nps stuff

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Thanks for asking :slight_smile:

With 2nps I still find “inside picking” harder for tracking purposes. Here’s a quick video where I do

Ascending inside - feels hard
Descending outside - easy
Ascending outside - easy
Descending inside - a bit harder

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what about 2 string patterns (Zakk Wyldeish)…do u have any of those up to blazing speeds?

for example any variation similar to this:

G—7–5-------
D----------7–5

Soz for the delay, was boarding a plane! I just had the time to film that penta video before leaving my parents’ house :smiley:

Yes, these 2-string licks are generally a bit easier for me, because they don’t involve a string-tracking challenge. I haven’t practiced them in a while but with a bit of revision I should be able to achieve decent results with both escaped upstroke and downstroke.

In fact, would you recommend any nice solo that uses these licks? Could be a good excuse to get my 2nps stuff back in shape!

EDIT: this is my favourite variation of Wylde-esque patterns:

G—7–5-7-5----
D---------7–5
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Damn impressive. Playing all 4 variations cleanly at high speeds is not easy. If you master this… you might want to consider playing around with 2nps, 1nps, 2nps, 1nps… stuff. It may end up being easier than you think.

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haha, its funny because i was going to put that exact lick lol

off the top of my head I can think of 2 solos that have similar ideas

this lick that starts slow at 4:00 and then accelerates. ultra cool

and then this whole bit from like 2:27 to 2:43

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@tommo

do you find 2nps stuff to feel way different than 3nps stuff? Lately im extremely happy with my 3nps stuff but 2nps just seems so totally different.

Yeah it’s very different! To me, string changes feel easier because you can get away with single-escaped pickstrokes, however string tracking becomes harder as you tend to move from string to string more often.

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