Tommo's ascending troubles, feedback welcome!

You ever tried a gypsy jazz style? The rotating wrist motion makes even notes very easy. Could speed up your 2s n 4s if you get the hang of it

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True, the gipsy method is very good for even notes! I can do it a little, but ideally Iā€™d like to master all the string changes using only wrist motions - for some weird reason the forearm rotation always feels a bit awkward to me.

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If it was me, Iā€™d stop playing a scale and just do pure chromatic. You can focus your mind on the right hand then. Burn that even note motion in and add scale later.

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Hey Tommo. Iā€™m sure Troy can come up with specifics, but overallā€¦ it looks good.

When you are doing the ascending 2NPS, are you consciously resting after each upstroke?

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Good question, I think my hand likes to rest stroke whenever it can, but in a 2nps sequence like the above this can only happen on the downstroke.

In contrast, with 3 or more notes per string I sometimes do fully trapped pickstrokes that rest in both directions, and I escape the plane of the strings only at the necessary points. This is what I think Iā€™m doing at least!

Your posts make the forum like an actual master class. Not spammy at all.

Youā€™re all set for Confirmation. :wink:

Slo-mo! Slo-mo! :slight_smile:

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First off, bravo! :+1: The even attack, especially when crossing strings is really impressive.

For the 2 notes per string is your fretting or picking hand that gets lost? For me itā€™s the fretting hand even without string changes. With a two note repeating pattern, like the pentatonic scale, the fingers have to cycle 50% faster than with a three finger pattern. That extra note on the string gives the starting finger extra time to ā€œresetā€. Six notes = 3 ā€œresetsā€ for 2nps vs. 2 ā€œresetsā€ for 3nps.

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I noticed the same kinda issue with my 2NPS lines. Sometimes going slower, but trying to rest in the opposite position helps. It kinda smoothens things out.

So, downstroke-rest-upstroke-downstroke-rest-upstroke-downstroke.

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I dunno, your ascending in the clip is only a hair slower than your descending, which is fast. I think they both sound excellent. My descending is markedly slower than my ascending, though my ascending is economy picked. Iā€™ve attempted to develop twps for descending, as well as economy, but both have been progressing like molasses in the last 6 months.

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Hi tommo (and everybody else), this is actually the first time I ever post something on here. Iā€™ve been reading this thread back and forth, because the challenges your experiencing are quite similar to my own. I have an idea, why you might have trouble with the 2nps in a DWPS setup. I recently noticed, that I am not really doing DWPS when I use my elbow at higher tempos, which is kind of upwards of 16th at 150- 160 bpm. The other motion mechanics I cannot seem to get that fast with, even on a single sring. So, what I am trying to say is this:
With Elbow only you can perfectly play UWPS stuff, but for the occasional escape stroke in 3 nps stuff you need rotation (I couldnā€™t yet make wrist extension work). And i can do that in lines north of 150 bpm, as long as I only have to rotate occassionally, like in an ascending 3nps scale, where only every sixth note is rotate and back. But in a 2nps ascending sixes pentatonic lick, you have to constantly rotate to make the pick escape. And the rotaional mechanic might just no be as fast for you, since it is not as developed.

I hope this makes any sense. Great thread, and cheers to everybody!

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So many good replies thanks :slight_smile:

I want to think a bit about the various points you all made, and will try to write a reply to everyone when I get a good chunk of time to do it properly! Slo-Mo also coming soon :sunglasses:

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Ok, time for some replies in random order! Disclaimer: Iā€™m not nearly as good as Troy at guitar biomechanics, so the following statements just reflect my current understanding of my technique.

@Ian it is definitely my right hand that gets lost in ascending DWPS pentatonics. I know this because I have no problem when playing them fast with UWPS (upstroke first). But I agree on the heavy finger usage of 2nps: my left hand does get tired more quickly compared to the good old 3nps patterns!

@RockStarJazzCat I like your optimism but Iā€™m pretty sure Iā€™m still far away from being able to do justice to the Bird :wink:

@hamsterman, @WhammyStarScream Focusing on the reststrokes really does help! At some point the other day I managed to get a couple of clean reps @170 (no video evidence sorry), though I noticed that my mechanics became quite different from what I use for 3nps. The trajectory of the pick was almost Gipsy-like, but Iā€™m pretty sure I was mostly using the wrist for the pickstrokes and the elbow (especially for string tracking). Weā€™ll have to check if/when Iā€™ll manage to capture a good take in slo-mo.

@7th11th I think I agree with your analysis, also for me the forearm rotation is a less developed/familiar movement. In the past in this forum I claimed that I was getting better at it, but looking at these videos now I think I was actually just fooling myself and using the wrist! (see also my previous comment). At the bottom thereā€™s some video evidence from last December - I was totally convinced I was doing the forearm rotation, but I canā€™t spot any if I look at it now.

The good news is that the forearm rotation does not seem necessary. When my ascending 3nps scales click (e.g. in the latest video) - I have the feeling that I am doing absolutely nothing to cross strings. In reality the wrist is doing the job, achieving a trajectory that is similar to what forearm rotation would do.

Overall, while I still find some things difficult, Iā€™m quite happy about my progress in the last year, sharing stuff in this forum has been very helpful!

Still working on them slo-mos, will get it up here in a day or two!

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Thatā€™s awesome.

For me as well. Iā€™ve spent countless hours over the last year practicing my weak transfer 2NPS runs, and removing my ā€˜slowā€™ strokeā€¦ and it has helped tremendously with 3NPS runs. And same as you, ultimately the mechanics needed to change to even things out. I felt like I was really honing in on the weakest link of my picking.

Itā€™s actually also helped with 1NPS runs as well.

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All a gypsy jazz style needs is a slight lifting of the wrist, palm not in contact with bridge, can be very small, gives the minimal wrist twisting a far greater range. Like a small version of evhā€™s tremolo.

Youā€™re dealing with way less movement of mass that way, far easier to control than moving the hand up n down. When I do it I move the thumb out, so the pick is more parallel to strings. Opposite of pulling it in, or the thumb hump I believe troy called it.

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Your yngwie sixes sound totally awesome and super clean! The ascending side looks like UWPS (or even fully trapped?) to me, with an escape stroke on every last note of the pattern. It definitly doesnā€™t look like DWPS, because that wouldnā€™t require that little twitch on every string change - and I do think you rotate, but only on the escapes!

The descending side still looks like UWPS, but the roation is almost invisible. I think this is because in UWPS you can swipe every downward string change in that lick, so you might have intuitively developed your technique economically not to overemphasize the escape stroke in the descending version, because you would still get to the next string via swiping in case the escape wasnā€™t super clear.

It is interesting to think about: UWPS makes every critical stringchange in descending licks swipeable, DWPS idoes the same for ascending.

And I just mean the slant of the pick in that context, not the trajectory.

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Took me a while, but I finally got down to it! However this time I couldnā€™t resist and I cherry-picked the best takes from the last video :sweat_smile:

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It looks like you use forearm rotation (+ Wrist deviation, but I definitely see rotation) for every Upstroke string change. This means that your base picking motion and your string change motion are different even when the lick/line would only require 1 Way Pick Slanting (and thus only Wrist deviation from a Supinated setup); this could be a possible reason for the awkward feeling of the movement (youā€™re switching mechanics every string change- and this happens more frequently on the 2NPS figures)

Perhaps your arm position is not in the correct angle to allow 9 o clock Wrist deviation to escape the strings on Upstrokes. (I have a feeling that this is because you like the feeling of rest strokes so you place your hand flatter and use a motion path that allows Trapped pickstrokes).

I know that the best way for me to work on my Wrist motion was to start Alternate picking 1NPS figures (Crosspicking). I did this by alternate picking triads, Spread Triads, Shell Voicings, drop 2 Voicings, and intervallic patterns and then just moving them up the neck diatonically. This forces your arm to be in a (Supinated) position that allows (only) Wrist Movement to Escape the Strings in both ends and then from there you can start to isolate each half of the movement to get a feel for Wrist only Pickslanting.

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Have you ever tried keeping the pick slant relatively stable and swiping through the strings?

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@DJ_Ddawg, @7th11th, I think your analysis of my mechanics is spot on! I have to agree that there seems to be a tiny forearm rotation component on my upstroke string changes, so I havenā€™t yet attained wrist-only picklanting as I originally thought.

I also have to agree that 2nps passages may be a weak point of this hand/arm setup, which if I remember correclty I called ā€œmode 2ā€ in another thread, and which I would say has a primary neutral-ish orientation.
By default I seem to do fully trapped pickstrokes + occasional escapes for string changes. For some reason, I have a slight preference for UWPS (or escaped downstrokes) in this setup - but it seems to work fine also for TWPS down to 3nps passages. Actually, if I start with upstrokes I can also do 2nps stuff no problem.

I also have another hand setup that I called ā€œmode 1ā€, and it is more supinated - I would call it primary DWPS or ā€œescaped upstrokesā€ in modern notation :wink: . Here downstroke-first pentatonics become easier, but 3nps scale playing becomes more messy, and I tend to systematically swipe all the ā€œascending outsideā€ string changes - in a way that is not subtle at all. I guess it is difficult to have a single hand position that makes everything feel easy - I seem to always end up with one ā€œweakā€ string change out of the possible 4 combinations :sweat_smile:

@WhammyStarScream Yep, I did experiment with swiping as well. In fact, I find it almost unavoidable in certain more complicated patterns (e.g. descending 4s a la Batio) and especially past certain speeds. How much I feel it/hear it still varies on a daily basis, I think I should work more on my left hand muting!

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Man, your playing is tight! Itā€™s definitely working out for you. In the last video, I can finally spot some elbow.
So your mode 2 includes elbow. That explains to me your default fully trapped pickstrokes and the slight tendency toward UWPS, because this exactly the plane in which the elbow moves, if the shoulder is positioned normally. I have the same setup as you, once my ā€œ6th gearā€ kicks in, the elbow is there. I also have the exact same problems and benefits from my technique, although my stuff isnā€™t half as polished as yours. I would love to hear your opinion on this, is there a way to play true DWPS if the elbow is involved?

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