Tommo's ascending troubles, feedback welcome!

Technique Critique
#21

@tommo: I think I understand your point. I may have not been clear. I was looking at things from the point of view of “chunck learning”. If you start on an upstroke for the ascending 3nps two string chunk, then it only involves inside picking.

@Gtrjunior: I totally agree with Tommo’s suggestion. I do not play academic exercises too often - they don’t seem to keep me motivated for long periods of time. I mainly try to learn challenging songs (I mostly play instrumental stuff); that’s where I tend to make the most technical gains. As you said, it has the added benefit of providing ideas to steal (uh, I mean adapt) for my own compositions :slight_smile: As Tommo said, there definitely is a planning phase when learning a new song (figuring out the correct fingering and picking patterns).

For legato, sweeping and tapping arpeggios, if you like his style of music, I suggest attempting to play any instrumental piece written by Paul Wardingham (tabs on his website) or his 20 epic metal licks/20 metal licks video tutorials (on JamTrackCentral). He also has some economy/alternate picking runs in his songs and exercises, but they are not as frequent as in other player’s compositions (e.g. Andy James).

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#22

You’re a badass Tommo

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#23

Hey @FenderBender1 (again, best username ever!), thank you! And thanks again to everyone else around here for making me feel much more confident about my playing \m/

Incidentally, thanks to comments by Troy and others I think I am now closer to understanding why ascending scales tended to feel a bit more sticky: for some reason, I got into the habit of introducing some forearm rotation to do the “ascending inside” string change. In contrast, I do the descending scale using (approximately) only the wrist - and perhaps some elbow.

So it seems that I use slightly different mechanics for the 2 directions of scale playing! Now I’m trying to do the ascending side with wrist only (or with very little forearm), and when it clicks it does feel much better and less athletic. It’s just hard at times to stop the old mechanics from cropping up again.

I hope this will be useful for other people with similar mechanics!

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#24

I’m totally in the same boat as you with regards to that : ascending move /inside picking. If you dig into some of my posts couple months ago I’m mentioning that specific point - though more in the context of 1 nps stuffs / banjo rolls.

As far as I’m concerned working on the roll was very beneficial. I managed to flat out the motion so that I can now do it almost solely wrist deviation. A bit of a forearm ‘kick’ is nice to have too, comes handy for some accent/phrasing. But there’s a thing of a flatter motion in that it provides more fluidity to some runs, especially applied to 2/3/4 nps stuffs. So it’s worth working on that.

One thing which I noticed though with this ‘flattened’ ascending/inside move on scalar runs is that I tend to have a weaker pick upstroke just before the string change. It’s often more of a feel thing but is bothering actually. Sometimes I feel I miss the stroke, and there’s time I actually miss it. It might be a pick angle thing, or something I’m adjusting a tad too early for that move. I’d be curious if you encounter the same thing.

I’d also add that the 2nps stuffs, starting on a downstroke ascending still feels a bit bumpy to me, because of that ascending/inside string change.

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#25

Speaking of which and hey there @tommo, A Major ends up alternating 4nps/3nps in the FordScales Chromatic Approach. Running the scale I end up sweeping after the 3n, and adding one hammered only note on descent to the end of the 3n portion.

Are you tackling the all 3nps as a pure challenge or as the setup for inside and outside picking? Both? I ask because one of my teachers currently has me working on a tune that may be played all inside or all outside…

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#26

Good question! My main reason for obsessing over straight up and down 3nps scale playing is that a lot of the shreddy tunes I like (Vinnie Moore, Paul Gilbert, Petrucci and co.) contain fast licks based on 3nps scale chunks, and these passages have been a bottleneck for me for many years.

Of course, it so happens that playing 3nps scales up and down involves all the main challenges of two-way pickslanting, so it can open the door to many other things.

On the other hand, I do realise that playing scales is probably one of the most boring / least musical things you can do, only second to the infamous chromatic 1234 exercise!

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#27

…when 1234 is actually the chromatic scale, I don’t mind it. Lol.

I get a lot of joy out of playing other’s solos using my own arrangement/fingering choices. I wonder if doing the same on the favorite “shreddy tunes” might unlock some insights for you?

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#28

Don’t you like just going straight through the strings rather than alternate picking them? This would take a huge amount of unneeded inertia out of 3nps, instead of fighting your arms inertia it would work for you.

#29

Are you asking why I prefer alternate to economy? The short answer is “timing”!

I can probably play an ascending scale faster with economy picking, but I find it very hard to keep it in time.

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#30

My thinking is, it’s easier to develop timing rather than fighting physics.

No doubt the akward feeling going up is due to gravity. It could also be the string height, are the strings angled? flat? curved? etc.

#32

If it’s just a feeling yet speed is fine it likely is.

This obviously is just my opinion, so don’t take things I say so harshly :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

#33

Hehe no worries I know what you mean. The only strange thing is, it actually feels easier to me to go against gravity :thinking: (string-tracking-wise)

And regarding the timing of sweeps, I’ve been trying to fix it for ages but it’s still hit and miss! With alternate, I feel like I’m almost where I want to be. Maybe it’s time for an updated video when I get around to it :slight_smile:

#34

I agree with you here on the timing… but another issue, is consistent attack. 3NPS have that really nice consistent dynamic. I found it impossible to duplicate it with economy picking.

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#35

I find the consistency of pure alternate picking takes away character, but different strokes different, blokes. Literally lol.

Think you can get a CtC angle Tommo?

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#36

I just listened to the video. Yes, I definitely like your descending sound more.

I have a suggestion, it’s gonna sounds weird… but it might help. when you go throught 2NPS ascending/descending practicing… do you feel like you have a major weakness on one of the 4 types of transfers. (ie asc insde, desc inside, asc outs, desc outs).

I have a gut feeling, that one of those transfers gives you problems… (im guessing outside ascending).

If that’s the case… spending time getting that up to speed may help with your 3NPS runs.

so basically… practicing 2NPS runs to get better at 3NPS runs.

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#37

Actually, when ascending a straight pentatonic scale, the “inside” version (downstroke first) is the hardest for me. If I start it with upstroke, it plays itself more or less.

I know in the past I talked about preferring inside picking for some sequences, but 2nps ascending is definitely not one of these cases!

#38

Oops… I don’t know why I said outside… I meant inside. my bad.

I would suggest spending just a couple minutes per day doing 2NPS ascending inside, trying to get it up to speed with your outside. It helped me quite a bit in this area.

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#39

Could also try just picking no fretting, can very pretty hard, most my playing breaks down with no left hand, might reveal something or just really focus your picking practice

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#40

A very good technique indeed. Sometimes the picking is so hard-wired with the fretting, that it’s tough to decouple the two.

This is also great for so many other patterns.

#41

Since this thread has attracted some interest recently (thank you all!), and I feel a bit spammy, I thought I’d post an update about my ascending figures practice.

First off, I feel much more confident now playing ascending figures than I was at the time of the above videos. Still, I think that things need to be cleaned up a bit more and my movements must become a little more repeatable.

I have also been guilty of cherry picking too much my practice videos, so here is a more “realistic” practice session of ascending figures. I think it gives a fair idea of my typical error rates.

For better navigation here’s what I recorded:

0:00 - 6 notes per string (180bpm 16ths)
0:22 - 4 notes per string (180bpm 16ths)
0:43 - 2 notes per string (160bpm 16ths)
1:13 - 2 notes per string (110bpm 6s)
1:35 - 3 notes per string (130bpm 6s)

You can see that in most sections I’m generally doing ok after a few tries (save a few muting errors) - except in the 2 notes per string sections. These have the highest error rates, and here is where I’m seeking feedback the most.

General question: is there anything obvious that is holding me back in the 2 notes per string parts? My hand can feel a bit lost. Or is it just a matter of “putting in the hours” practicing these movements?

I have these videos in 60FPS (the best my current phone can do) so I can make slow motion versions of some of these movements, if anyone is interested in discussing further!

Thank you all again!

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