Tremolo tests, with and without metronome

Technique Critique
#1

I totally agree and I always make sure I try without a metronome as much as possible, but often struggle to progress for the reasons given below. (Lifting text from a thread I created a week or so ago). Definitely a mental/physical disconnect. Best I can manage is flip-flopping between metronome and not. Hopefully I can rely on this less and less.

"After warm-up I will get my tremolo going as fast as I can. It feels good, smooth and sounds really fast. I then check against the metronome to find that I was only playing between 160 and 170 bpm. I would then bump the metronome up to 190 or 200 and play it fine and in time.

Its like my mind and body are calibrated to play up to the 160-170 mark in the absence of external stimulus ie. a beat/metronome. For the remainder of a practice session, I could play near enough at 200bpm tremolo without the metronome as a guide, like I was re-calibrated, temporarily at least.

I distinctly remember when working on my tremolo, that I relied on my metronome, but ensured that it was bumped way outside the stringhopping zone and my capabilities at the time."

Translating table tapping speed to tremolo
#2

You’re saying you literally could not go faster than this unless you heard it on a click first? That could very well be a function of a low top speed limit / motion inefficiency problem, and not a brain disconnect.

This example from our lessons was 200, and when I was filming it I needed to play that drum beat really loud in the room to make sure I was really doing it in time:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKNCqsdHBAe/

Yes I could do it, and without massive discomfort. But I wouldn’t call it “easy” in the sense of I felt like I could do that all day. It would become tiring.

These new motions in this thread though, they’re stupid fast. I haven’t even bothered going down to 200. 220 is the new 180, i.e. fast but manageable over time with little effort.

#3

Yes, it seems that way - around 160 or 170. But if I put a metronome on at 200, I could do it pretty quickly. I’m not saying that I think the motion is the same - i’m thinking it can’t be, right? I assume that with the click, I know its possible and I adjust the mechanic without actively thinking about it - it forces me to make it happen!

I suppose I just keep experimenting and try and access the higher speed more readily? I must be defaulting to motion A, when I need to instantly access motion B. Thinking back, I have always struggled going into fast picking from a ‘cold start’ (I bet there is an old post somewhere).

Could this be something that happens as part of experimenting though? Where you start to do things slightly differently in one way and there is a bit of confusion before you manage to bed the more efficient motion in?

#4

How fast is it? Film it and put up a clip, we’ll take a look. Elbow is usually a DSX technique which means downstroke switching. There’s no reason you couldn’t use it for multi-string phrases, but if it’s really going at hyper speeds, doing anything with your left hand at those speeds becomes non-trivial.

#5

You’re saying you think the 200 is a different motion? I suppose it’s possible. I was just suggesting that if you’re like me, it’s not a different motion, just the top end of your slower one and somewhat effortful. That’s why you might need the metronome to remind you of the speed, because it’s not super comfortable for anyone to play near the top end of their physical limit. But that’s just a guess. If the motions we’re looking at in this thread become habitual an actually useful, then I’ll know more eventually about whether I’m “switching” from slow to fast technique, or just using a slightly easier wrist motion all the time.

#6

In a general sense, its still the same motion type I guess, but I must be augmenting how the muscles are engaging the motion - maybe there is more forearm action or complementary elbow creeping in? I would have to record it to see if there are any major changes.

If its the same motion, then the gap of 170-220 seems like a wider range of speed limit ‘zone’ than I would have expected. I assumed that it would be all dandy until you start hitting the limit and then you might get maybe a few bpm higher with effort before it goes into meltdown.

We know that players can use both inefficient motions at slower speeds then transition to an efficient one at higher speeds, but do players have 3 or more motions of the same ilk for the same type of line, but the distinction between them are so small that its not obvious/perceptable? For example;
Motion 1- inefficient but capable at slow speeds
Motion 2 - efficient and capable at medium-higher speed
Motion 3 - blast mode!

200bpm has always been the holy grail for me -I could probably die a happy man if I could consistently pick at that tempo. My goal at the moment is to increase the upper limit of my picking speed to around 220+, to gain a more fluid and consistent 200 that feels easier to tap into.

1 Like
#7

I had 5 minutes between work calls today, so recorded the below. No warm-up all recorded one after the other in order. With a warm-up, I think that all clips would have been a bit smoother, but not necessarily faster.

1st clip is me just trying to tremolo as fast as I can without metronome. This went okay-ish. I have done better and worse before. What speed do you make it? (I’m wondering whether I’m hearing it slower than it is, either way its not the smoothest)

Next is 200bpm with metronome

And finally 218bpm on metronome.


Cheers!
#8

Thanks for filming these! I moved these to their own thread to keep the other one more on track to the “phone tapping” test idea.

This is a nice looking picking motion. It looks easy and relaxed, and far from the stringhopping attempts we often see. It’s also not slow, around 200bpm give or take. Varies between 195 and 205 approximately. I will remind everyone that this is for the most part as fast as I’ve ever played in any of the things we’ve posted, and approximately as fast as Michael Angelo Batio played in our first shreddier interview with him. Hard to believe sometimes but true.

The highest speed is actually basically the same in all these clips, with and without metronome. The metronome ones are just more even. As is often the case in the examples we review, you’re not really playing along with the metronome. It looks to me like you’re mainly using it to get pumped and try harder. For future motion tests I might ditch the metronome and just focus on the getting pumped aspect. You could probably get the same result with some death metal in the backround. Maybe even better results!

The one thing that’s unusual here is the speeding up and slowing down. Whatever speed it is, tremolo doesn’t usually vary too much in tempo, at least until the end if you start to tire. So that makes me think that as relaxed as this is, there is another motion you can do that is more flat-out and will have a more typical even rapid speed pattern.

Have you taken the table tap tests in the new lessons? Those do use a metronome. Are they any faster or more even? Have you tried other mechanics like elbow?

I think given how comfortable and non-hoppy these results appear for you, some more experimentation may produce an even better motion.

2 Likes
#9

Yes. I found it quite alien and can’t tap against something for love nor money, so I used my credit card and made the motion with a pen back and forth over the edge to get something audible!

EVH - 210
Al Di Meola - 220
Rotational - 190 but with spasms
Elbow - 250 but super tense and sore on the elbow
Simple door knock 280

Yes, its like I have something to aim for, otherwise I have less sense of what I’m doing.
Arnie always said the greatest feeling is ‘the pump’, I guess its the same with the guitar!

#10

I don’t know if it’s a good idea to use the metronome to get excited if you’re not really keeping in time with it. I want to say it looks like it would only hurt your ability to keep time, but that’s just a guess. It seems really wrong to me to have it going while making motions that don’t conform to it, but I admit that’s just because it seems wrong!

More importantly, when the motions are working correctly, this type of problem shouldn’t be happening. They should be easy enough to do that getting them going fast and keeping them going at a steady rate should be mostly automatic. That makes me think more experimentation is necessary.

These test numbers are very good, especially the door knocking one. Are you saying you can’t knock on table or door in time with a metronome? How did you do that test?

#11

I would say that the above takes were done rushed and if I were to spend another 5 or so mins on it I would be much smoother and way more in time, but I hear what you are saying, I shouldn’t have to hunt around for 10 minutes to get that motion - it should be 99% there from the get-go. I do tend to start most of my practice without the metronome, but I always feel I come up short when I review the speed (but then again I might be selling myself short if I’m inaccurate at reviewing!)

I’m happy to keep experimenting without metronome and see what shakes loose. Even if it helped me get this far, its definitely not a silver bullet and helping now.

The 280 (and others) were the extreme max that I could do for 9 knocks (I just tried it now and it was a bit tricky for 270) is this too short a duration for this test? Knocking on a table was fine, but for some reason I found it really hard to do the other motions tapping a pick against something like a dvd box or phone - it was jerky and weird. I found it easier to use a pen against the table and drag it over the edge of my credit card - it made it a more audible click in one direction stroke direction - these were the 8th notes against the metronome.

The elbow one was fast, but I have shit elbows. I tried it against the guitar and it was hilariously impossible, but I’d like to try it again sometime.

The biggest positive out of this so far was last night- scalar playing was going well, fast and synched. I recognised the Al Di Meola sensation of the table tests - it would come and go, but when it was on - it was on.

#12

That makes more sense. The sideways tapping can be a little tricky. But were you able to do the table knocking / vertical tapping perfectly dead in time with the metronome at a lower tempo for multiple bars? Try it at 220 with a metronome and post a clip if you get a moment. Do it in multiples of 8, which is one bar of tapping. 16 is the minimum, but three or four bars is even better as a real-world test.

#13

Any good?
Had to do it on the floor - the wife told me I was waking the kids! Lol

#14

And also, the 1st time I tried the EVH, I did the hand setup wrong and did a pen version that feels the same motion as the door knocking but easier…is this even the same motion as the door knocking?

#15

These are great. Yes the table knocking is dead to the click. That’s what you’re looking for in your picking motions, not the unsure motion in your earlier tests.

This second video is also great. It’s stupid fast, like 240bpm or thereabout. As to exactly which motion, not totally sure, but it’s in the ballpark of the EVH motion, or the table knocking motion. Which motion it is precisely doesn’t really matter so much. It’s enough to say that these are more “vertical” motions closer to up and down wrist flexion-extension rather than side to side wrist deviation motion. You’re just doing it here with your arm turned so it looks more side to side.

Both of these tests blow away your earlier tests in terms of speed, confidence, and ability to keep even time. I’m guessing these feel much easier too? If so, that’s what you’re looking for on the motions with an actual guitar in your hands. When you get it, it will be obvious, and not the kind of “am I doing it right” ambiguity that we often struggle with when we think we’re making improvements but really aren’t.

Since these more vertical motions are fast and easy for you, it’s worth trying the laptop / three-finger grip I posted in this clip. It looks very similar if not exaclty the same as the motion in your pen video here:

The idea is to make this fast tapping motion like you’re doing with the pen, and rotate the pick around in your grip until you find the point where the attack is equally smooth on upstroke and downstroke. You’ll end up with something that looks a little like George Benson or Shawn Lane. The motion will look like upstrokes, but they’re just the same tapping motion that you’re doing on the table with the pen It’s a bit of a brain teaser. I still think of it as a “downstroke” in my mind because it goes toward the guitar body.

It shouldn’t be hard to get this really confident speed happening on the string on your lap. It’s just a test. You can then work on trying to do it in a more normal playing posture.

#16

@Troy You sound like you’re enjoying yourself in this video lol

#17

If you’d just blitzed your previous ‘best’ picking BPM last week and end up able to do this a week later, I’d be laughing too! :smiley:

#18

LMAO, its so damn hard! But it is fun to try, for some reason it had me in stitches. In all fairness I need to try this more, but in case its of interest here are the highlights:

  • Very hard to hold the pick at any angle to get the even contact, probably due to the next point
  • Height of the pick is too low that it feels like I’m using Thor’s hammer.
  • I find that I end up doing more rotation than the pure knocking movement, thus not as quick feeling.
#19

Well this was interesting!

2 Likes
#20

zoom zoom! That seems pretty bangin.