Working on getting my tremolo under control and are curious If this could be the technic I should be work further on.
Wrist/forearm- motion test gives me around 210 bpm for 1 - 2 bars. The clip shows me playing 180 Bpm pretty effortless for a while but only after I´ve done some warm up, maybe 10-15 minutes.
I´m struggling with making my motion smooth and accurate. If my technic looks good I´m wondering a couple of things:
-What motion/pick-angle and escape does it look like I´m doing?
Is 210 a receipt of me being able to one day reach that tempo If I just continue down this path shown in the clip?
Is it possible to push beyond 210 one day, or is 210 just “end of the road”?
Will the smoothness come “automatically” If I just keep on working on playing in faster tempos (>170 Bpm) or does It mean I should actively work on getting it under control before raising tempo further?
The moment I try to do some fretting It all falls apart. I can feel my picking hand tense up and my left hand is to slow. (I understad this means I need to work on my left hand). To make my hands sync I´m forced to take it down to around 150 Bpm. Same thing happens If I try playing two-note-per-string back and forth on for example B- and G-string. Is going down to 150 Bpm the way to go for me and make that work smoothly and effortless (left and right hand) before raising the tempo?
When Is a good times to start working on string-shifting licks like the one´s showing in the “cascading”-seminar?
Can´t express enough how grateful I am for this community and seminars/instructional-vids. I´ve been playing guitar for a long time and have given up many times with gaining technic for playing faster stuff like yngwie, Eric Johnson, and many more. I´ve been thinking that my mind/body just aren´t built for that kind of playing. I realise I´ve been schooled wrong and that my technic would never had worked for faster things until now.
Working on this for maybe around 3 weeks and a couple of times a week. Maybe I shouldn’t expecting any huge improvements In such a short amount of time?
It seems impossible to mute the strings while still using the same motion and speed. Do I need to switch motion entirely to be able to do just that?
You can rest the blade of your palm on the bridge/strings while using this motion. It just feels a little different. In fact, it’s one of the biggest advantages of wrist-forearm – muting all strings at once while playing!
In some sense all that matters is the maximum speed where your left and right hands are perfectly synchronized; would one have perfect synchronization and then bump the metronome up a bit? (Yes?) Do you think it is possible to add synchronization later (no?), or do you think that you need to always have it (yes?)?
Hey Patrik - awesome playing, man! pretty darn fast! Looks USX powered by wrist rotation. Actually looks quite similar to EVH’s form when he plays the tremolo bit on eruption. I use a rotation when I dabble with double escape, but there is a definite tempo cap on the double and single escape playing. Even NPS tremolo is at about 16ths@180. Double escaping is quite a bit slower and a soulless grind. haha!
Anyways, I was able to imitate your playing pretty closely; got tremolos to the same tempo pretty much and it didn’t take too long! I think it’s because you seem to be kind of rubbing your free RH fingers against the pickguard - I do that also with my elbow form, basically my RH pinky would act as a reference. But, while it’s pretty quick I found it to be a limiting factor actually… Same thing in this instance too where I was playing around with using your form. I tried to do a 1-2-3-4-2-3-4-5-3-4-5-6 type thing on a single string - no sweat, but my knuckle was starting to get sore - I think I exert too much pressure with my thumb. Invites tension.
When I tried to do a 2 nps thing, I noticed immediately that the pick got stuck under the string, and fell apart. it seemed to get a bit better by supinating a bit more and making a conscious effort to do a smaller pickstroke. Now when I tried to remove those RH fingers from the pickguard it got really ugly! Couldn’t hit a note! lol Forced my actual palm to flatten out and contact the strings and it got better. A bit tricky to do the rotation, and it felt weird - quite a bit softer actually but I got the tempo to a similar place.
Not sure if that’s at all helpful, but maybe try some of those experiments and see what you get? Subtle changes/optimizations I think… Troy had quite a rotation, if you could get him to comment on your TC I bet you’d be really off to the races.
My apologies for not being clear. Let’s say that you’re perfectly synchronized at 151 bpm. Then, one option is to try 153 bpm or whatever slightly faster speed you like until you’re synchronized again, and then bump it up from there, crawling up.
@milehighshred has an excellent free book on metronome use and is the gold standard in these regards, you might enjoy it!
I would maybe suggest moving the tempo quite a ways up immediately and even if it’s a struggle, work your way down to a “successful” tempo. That way you don’t fixate on the tempo as much and stand much less of a chance of plateauing. Also, You will know immediately more quickly if this will work at all at a higher tempo. If the “successful” tempo isn’t moving up past a point for a solid week or more, you may have reached the top tempo possible and thusly it might be necessary to optimize/reconfigure the motion for greater speed. Hopefully that makes sense? Cleanup can happen later - I feel like it would be worthwhile to see just what exactly the raw speed potential of the motion is before doing anything else. Hahaha That’s my current opinion at the moment on the topic!
That’s been my experience, anyways - Big bumps then come back down for tempo training.
So… why wouldn’t people like piano or violin teachers permit this? What is it about guitar that is different? Indeed, another thread has an Anton O. video where he shows Olympic swimmers in breast stroke and they almost all look identical… is there really room for so much picking diversity, or is it really a consequence of people studying without guidance and, in the lucky cases, half- or fully-discovering systems that work—that can later be taught, where one merely needs to study with a metronome? I have no idea, but this is really the single most fascinating question in the guitar world in my humble opinion!
Thank’s guys for some great ”food for thoughts”!
I guess that my biggest question is if it is possible to increase my top motion-speed or if around 200-210 will be my absolute MAX tempo (sixteenth notes). When I see people playing at 250 pretty effortless I start too doubt myself. Everywhere on this forum It sounds like my top motionspeed Is what I will have to settle with and “only” try to then apply on my guitar. I would be fine with being able too play sixteenth notes in 200 Bpm for sure but still, is it possible?
I guess knowing it is possible would make me more optimistic about myself and my potential of playing faster stuff. When I know something is possible and can find proof of this I will work I would be very motivated.
Here’s a long reply, comin’ in hot! hahaha I woke up super early today so I did my best to gather my thoughts. Just my opinions, not trying to be confrontational or anything - I sure hope it doesn’t read that way! Keep in mind that I am trying to figure this picking stuff out myself! Anyways… hopefully this is helpful to the original poster as well…
Piano has an execution motion technique that’s solved. I don’t really play piano much but right off the bat, without having practiced it previously I was able to get ascending/descending fours in C Major up to 180 BPM. Kind of a 20 minute thing. Violin, I have played on and off for decades and it’s the same thing - the technique/note execution is solved. As a matter of fact, the bow NEVER goes under the string, so any technical difficulties with bowing are solved. Both of these instruments (Piano and violin) there’s a pretty standardized way to execute notes. So honestly, if a student “follows the rules” they will have no problems with tempo increases, whether done gradually by the metronome or otherwise. Because that instrument is basically just pressing buttons! No string crossing! PS I took violin lessons from a wide variety of teachers and while sure it’s suggested to take it slow and gradually increase the tempo, especially if you are “real time reading” BUT I was free to practice at whatever tempos I wanted. Honestly, the metronome, was more of a “pulse reinforcer” to me and the folks I went to school with than it was ever a “tempo increaser”…
Well lets think about this; You’re on a site where the menu consists of this: there’s 3 main escapes - USX, DSX, DBX. There’s of course varying degrees of supination and pronation, and as well pick grips ranging from leading edge, trailing edge, pistol, 2 finger, 3 finger etc, Motions that are pure wrist deviation, DT, RDT, Thumb Wrist/forearm rotation, Elbow. We can’t forget about string-hopping and swiping, as well as the many varieties of picking strategy ranging from sweep, alternate, hybrid, hammer, tap. Not to mention that for every variety and combination we can find a player that is an exemplary example. And not even famous rock and roll stars.
I suppose conformity would solve a lot of things, sure but I would argue that not everyone out there is designed to do a perfect breast stroke. Physiologically those people doing an efficient, perfect breast stroke are elite athletes doing an activity that, again, has been “solved”. Picking hasn’t been “solved” yet, all Troy has done is supply us with a naming convention and try to shed some light on what’s going on under the hood. Don’t get me wrong, that’s a lot - I am not trying to be dismissive about CTC in any way, shape or form! I am just saying that from my perspective - it’s very, very difficult to define absolutes - probably because we need another 3-400 years at it to see what really works and what doesn’t. Anton is awesome, no doubt about it - but does that mean that Marshall Harrison or Brett Garsed are “lesser” players because they don’t conform? Zakk Wylde sucks because he doesn’t conform? Yngwie is a lowly single escape USX player? Vinnie Moore is a crappy 'ole Elbow guy? Eric Johnson = Undesirable technique. I don’t think so. Those guys have relevant musical output BECAUSE of their diversity I would argue.
This describes me. I started playing guitar when I was pretty young, ummm 1977ish? Certainly no lessons. I didn’t even know how to tune for the longest time and learned to play from playing along to records. Doing what seemed logical, and accepting any happy accidents along the way. When I went to music school (1992-1995) the topic of picking technique never came up; I could do pretty decent versions of anything I wanted to play. And you know, once we all got the internet I realized I wasn’t alone. I guess that what I am trying to say is that despite me doing things in such a way that were “wrong” and contrary to what others did/do I was still able to have a musical output that was unhampered by my lack of, ummm formal oversight. Besides, to this day people STILL don’t really understand picking slanting escape etc beyond using them as catchy terminology for their youtube followers… Like, Subscribe, and obey!
I have a youtube playlist with a bunch of my own recordings, very much pre CTC with the exception of one tune and I think it backs up my perspective. You can’t tell HOW I am playing this from the recordings so it really doesn’t matter, does it? Playlist of “lucky case, half- or fully-discovering systems that work” struggling with life is below…
Drummers, as Tom mentioned need to be looked at. Melody and harmony is pretty finite, but rhythm is an infinite thing and rhythm and time are all that drummers practice and play. Find a few drummers and ask them how they use a metronome - you might be surprised to get a few different answers!
That is dang fast - I kind of hover around here “maximum speed” for my even NPS stuff, and I am fine with it. That’s just me, I like fast stuff but I don’t have a need to be the fastest or even “keep up with the instagram guys” lol.
Nah, don’t do that. Music isn’t about just speed - that’s just one of many articulations available. I am of the opinion that “interesting” trumps “superspeed” any day of the week. Steve Vai vs Tom Hess? Steve Vai please.
I guess it just really depends on what kind of music you’re trying to play; For me I was having troubles getting clean, to tempo execution of notes from transcription books etc. I am not a big fan of TAB for the reason that it kind of forces a kind of execution and technique that might not be available to everyone due to motion/slant/escape etc. Transcription folios seem to really encourage a kind of playing that is sometimes not conducive to being played, or even remembered. Weird position changes, or weirdly being forced into a 4 frets for 4 fingers kind of position. Ahh if I knew then what I know now…
If you want to achieve this level of speed I would suggest trying a trailing edge grip and watching this video
Have you watched the original Cracking the Code series of videos from 10 years ago? Guitar is definitely different, @Troy is an incredible piano player but when he started learning the guitar it didn’t have anywhere near the same kind of linear progression.
But why is guitar different than these other instruments and their established best practices? Is there more to be discovered or is everything discovered and the question is synthesis (e.g., Anton)?
Piano at elite levels is excruciatingly difficult and is not “linear,” they demand perfection. Actually, attending a piano master class with some eight year olds playing can be pretty eye-opening relative to guitar standards and what is expected of them.
I think it’s because the most efficient motions you can make with your hand are tapping motions that move vertically which when applied to the guitar are a lot less intuitive compared to motions you’d make with other instruments and current guitar pedagogy doesn’t teach these motions, that’s why we have Cracking the Code
Thank you for some great thoughts!
Actually, I would be super fine with being able to play sixteenth notes at 180 Bpm BUT I want to have some head room. 190-200 Bpm would make 180 Bpm effortless and comfortable to play. At the moment I’m struggling playing at 140 Bpm (Fretting stuff) but I think If I first got the tremolo thingy going so that I can play 200 Bpm on one string for let’s say, 8 bars sixteenth, I would later try and apply that on actual playing. My left hand has a lot of work in front of it and that’s fine.
I guess knowing that the same motion and result from “table test” could get faster by practicing makes me more optimistic that I can reach my goal of effortlessly playing at 180 Bpm stuff. (Of course suitable stuff to my pickslanting ect)
Piano and violin design conform much more significantly to established standards than guitars.
Electric guitars don’t even produce sound by the same physical process as acoustic guitars. They are fundamentally different instruments. There are also much greater variations in shape and physical dimensions.
The classical piano and classical violin may have established best practices, but they also have established repertoire. Outside of classical music, both instruments are approached quite differently. A violin player is not the same as a fiddle player.
We organise into movement around constraints. There are task constraints, performer constraints and equipment constraints. The guitar represents much greater variance in task and equipment constraints, and necessarily demands greater variation in movement solutions.
There is no established best drumming movement, but it doesn’t prevent them from having excellent pedagogy.
(Yes?) Do you think it is possible to add synchronization later (no?), or do you think that you need to always have it (yes?)?
