Trouble getting decent tone with VST ampsims

Ok, basically I am not a newbie in using ampsims.
I’ve been using them for about 8 years, if not more, so one could say I know my way around.
The problem is, I was never able to get the tone that I was happy with - not for recording anyways.
It is all fine when I’m just jamming, but when I want to record something more seriously, I just can’t get a decent tone out of it.
There’s always something wrong, too fizzy, too boomy, too much gain, too weak tone, too honky, too scooped.

I’ve been told to use equalisers, use less gain, but I did all that.
Let’s break it down, shall we?

1. "Low pas at 6kHz, you don’t need more highs"
Low passing at 6kHz makes the tone very dark and dull, moving the lowpass higher gives “fingernails on a blackboard” sound that I am not too fond of.

2. "Use the IRs we gave you"
I’ve tried plenty of impulse responses - I liked Guitarhacks’ the most - but others told me to use specific ones they gave me. So I did, and the tone was… weird. Not what I was used to. Dark, sometimes honky, sometimes extremely fizzy - or all of the above, I don’t know how is that possible.

3. "Use less gain"
I did that already. In fact I was clipping before, so now I set up my interface to -12dB so my signal does not clip anymore.
Maybe I should turn it down more? Amped Roots still is a high gain monster if I set input and gain knobs in the plugin to minimum.

4. It sounds low quality to me
Yeah, that. I’ve seen some great sounding demos and playthroughs of digital ampsims. Some fantastic sounding covers using them. Even some original songs.
Glenn Fricker from Spectre Sound Studios did some comparisons between ampsims and real things, and the difference was negligible at best.
So I tried exact same ampsims with exact same settings on them, the same IR’s - the results are somewhat lacking.

I am attaching an example below, together with some samples of my playing through several ampsims.

This Glenn’s vid is about ML Amped Roots - the first plugin you will hear in my sample (caution - the language used in this video may be somewhat indecent):

And here are my samples:
ML Amped Roots - all 12 o’clock with stock IR - same as used by Glenn in the video above, except I turned the gain significantly - to 9 o’clock

Ignite Emissary - same as Roots, their own IRs loaded

NaLex Crunchman - emulates Fredman BE-100, loaded with Guitarhacks’ IRs - gain around 6/10, bass 6, middle 4, treble 7, presence 6, power amp 2

Audio Assault Sigma - all 12 o’clock except gain which is kept at 4/10 (around 9:30 o’clock) with their own IR

No post processing, no EQs other than what was already placed on impulse loader.
Simple riff from one of Ahlys’ songs I’ve been transcribing lately, two tracks panned left and right.

Notice how quiet they all are - I didn’t lower the volumes, that’s how all my tracks in Reaper sound like, except for if I import one into session.

Here’s another sample I recorded a few days ago (drums included):

This one is obviously better sounding, but still far from “studio” quality, isn’t it?

I am asking you to have a listen and see if there is anything about my tone I could improve, but most important if this is the way I set up my amps or if this is due to some other issue that needs to be solved.

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Need to boost more mids to focus the bandwidth, that’ll make the guitar sound “louder” in the mix.

Of the clips you posted, the Nalex IMO seems to be the worst as far as sound, definitely within a mix context. The rest seem good.

Which is strange - I find it the most pleasing to me when I just jam.
I wanted to include a sample of Neural DSP’s Nameless, but the trial won’t let me render. Shame.
Anyways - the samples I posted were deliberately left at noon, just to make it easier to compare them.
That is except for Sigma, which I use that way because I bought it recently and have no idea how to use it yet.
But - my issues with the popular ones I tried so far are as follows:

  • Roots - really boomy, lots of fizz in high end, no way to turn the gain down as even at minimum it will be too much (usually):
  • Emissary - “stringy” (lol) and somewhat undefined, I guess.

This is how I would really dial them (sorry for sloppy playing):


Now - I guess this would be more usable in a mix, but still kinda high gain - I would lower it for recording of course - but when I do record (double or quad track - doesn’t matter) it does not seem to stick toghether very well. Definitely there is some “oomph” lacking, and quality could be better.
Like, I think this is the best mix I ever got - and still not quite good, and I know for sure it can get so much better, just don’t know how:

How is the analog side of things and the A/D conversion? I know I’m kind of an audio nerd, but the DI can only work with whatever source material is coming in. I watched the amp sim guy’s YouTube promo waiting for him to show his analog chain, but I didn’t see anything.

On your “Here’s another sample I recorded a few days ago” one, I hear the high melodic guitar being ahead on a bunch of those notes. If you pocket those, it should sit a bit better. I don’t know if that’s the part you’re essentially unhappy with, though. I get the feeling you’re focused more on the chunky stuff.

Are the low ones unmetered tremolo or sixes? There’s kind of a rhythmic push/pull happening with that part too, although that might be part of the vibe.

I kind of hate to ask, but is there a bass part on it? I’m just listening on Apple earbuds, but I would think I’d be able to hear something down there.

On the “ML Amped Roots” one, it sounds like I am hearing a 15 ms (or so) delay from the right to the left – not even like a stereo effect so much as the sound of the left channel having been just slid later. At first I thought it was maybe a doubling or something, but it’s very regular. I do think that one is pretty gain-y – I’d say “less is more,” but I think you’re ultimately trying to harness a gain-y tone. The thing is, a lot of this hits differently in the mix. Tight double tracking can give something the “vibe” of being gain-ier than it really is. Some of the finesse of mixing is to get that vibe happening from the right kind of dry tracks – so it’s up to the player/producer to leave room for processing later in the production/mixing. But again, I’m projecting my workflow onto your vision, which isn’t really fair to what you have in mind. If you played this part through a $$$ metal amp like a Diezel VH4 or Bogner Uberschall with the knobs twisted to a “sweet spot,” I think it would sound pretty great, though. The part you’re playing in the ML Amped track sounds organic, like it needs those overtones – it’s not like it’s some polyrhythmic djent thing on a detuned low B or anything.

I know we’re all like, “yeah, that’s a great amp…like I’ll ever be able to afford THAT! I guess I’ll stick with my sim…” But, you know, it’s not like the tools of the trade are $30,000 Steinways or anything – I mean, those Hammond organs used to cost BIG bucks back in the 60’s, but even garage bands seemed to have them (or have access to them). In the scheme of things, modern guitars and amps aren’t dirt cheap, but they are at least relatively accessible.

You’re clearly on a quest for tone, and the 5150 sims are apparently in the ballpark. The real ones come up used for $500-1000 here. Some people need 9 amps for a session – somehow, I think one amp, but the RIGHT amp (for you) would do nicely, given your evident artistic direction.

This gets to the whole question of workflow and vision. Some people can fall into the “prosumer trap.” Since home studio stuff can sound SO good (especially compared to the sound from the cassette 4-track days), and since some approaches honestly work just fine with that workflow, it kind of habituates everyone into “I’ll just do it at home.” I guess it’s the year for that. And I know it sucks to be stuck in that no-man’s land of, “is this a demo sound, or how far away am I from what would be a fair representation of what my ‘best work/sound’ would be at this point in time?”

By the way, I don’t think that basic tone is terrible or anything by a long shot. Some of this is getting it so the DYNAMICS at the front edges of the pick strikes can breathe a bit – so it’s not squashed into a total square wave by the high gain distortion. That’s the idea with turning down the gain, but maybe there are other places to look. Getting some of the mojo from power tube distortion can help with this. Playing touch and guitar gear-type stuff is relevant.

When dynamics are happening, there are more options on the mixing end, and compressors have something to work with. I hear an EQ bump and an EQ hole in your ML tone – I guess maybe the bump is at 900-1200 Hz and the hole is after that going up. This is why I am thinking you could stand to look at the analog end of things. The sizzle (past 2k, really more 3.5k+) doesn’t sound to me like it’s “speaking,” and I don’t think it’s really a simple fix like twisting a virtual knob or something. Messing with it on a preamp sim is just going to drive it in the direction of “fizz.”

My other thought is that a part like that would get bigger with tight double tracking, hard panned L/R. I’d talk about compression and mix EQ’s, but that stuff is all about context. Like, I wouldn’t be going after the low end on the solo’ed guitar too hard without checking what the bass is doing under it. But I get that you have a tone in your head, and the first step is, “can I get THAT?”

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For me it’s just guitar into audio interface - ESI UGM96 - an old one, and I must say drivers are unreliable, but it gets the job done and was best I could afford at the time.
I know Glenn is using some DI box first and then interface - dunno which one, but would it really make a difference in sound?

Actually, it is both I am unhappy with. On the original recording the lead part is just screaming, my version sounds too tame, sweet even.
And that was not with Roots BTW - I think it was Sigma on lead and Nalex Crunchman / Amplex with JCM800 preset on rythm.

They were metered in all examples except for the second post were I added screenshots of amps used.
That pumping effect may be from badly applied master bus compressor / limiter that I used to bring up the volume and forgot to disengage later. Also I have a strong tendency to accent ones.

I don’t have a bass. The one sample with drums and leads may have some midi bass track though, but it sounded terrible so I would keep it rather quiet.

Do you mean the first sample I posted?
That would be strange, because all other sims are using exact same DIs, so the same issue would appear for them as well.

Yeah, that’s the thing - I know I should keep the gain moderate. But for Roots if I lower the pre-gain input level and zero the gain knob it will still sound that way - too gainy, too fizzy, just weaker - while I can clearly see Glenn showcasing it out of the box with everything at noon sounding awesome. And it’s not even in IRs as he was using the stock one at first.

I think you are correct and what I need at the moment is to identify the issue and learn how to dial in the ampsims to actually sound usable.
So I think there is a lot I could learn from your workflow, as whatever I did does not work obviously.

Well, actually it is in B (first batch of samples) and F# (later sample, with screenshots), but yeah, not djenty nor polirythmic.

Just about same here in Poland actually - plus whatever a cab costs. Or Bugera’s copy - wich is half the price.
The problem is that a) I don’t earn enough b) large head and a cab in a rented apartment is a recipe for disaster :slight_smile:
Not to mention other hardware needed to record with it.

The point to all of this is being able to record good sounding covers and eventually some original songs for my band.
And by good sounding I mean maybe not professional studio worthy, but as close as I can get. Like something that I could put on Spotify or YT without complaints or shame.

Like, artificial sizzle? I hear it could be removed with some plugins, I sure did use ReaFir to get rid of some electricity hums before.

The first batch of samples are double tracked, the one with drums is quad tracked except for leads - maybe the key is in tight tracking.

I’d say check in with a buddy or find someone on the forum who’s getting a hot tone from a DI source. Then get that person to email you a 30 second bit of the flat DI audio (24 bit at your sample rate – no mp3’s!) with no processing. If you load that up into your sim, maybe that would answer some questions. If it’s over 10 MB, WeTransfer is kind of an industry standard for transferring files that are too big to email (and it’s free/advertiser supported).

I’m not sure how it’ll go with those. However, I have done a TON of DI bass with all kinds of configurations, and I can say that even the smallest things do make a difference with that. To an extent, that’s the idea – by definition, an expressive tone would be audibly responsive to at least some of the “smallest things.” So in that sense, a tone can teach someone how to play, meaning, a tone that’s too honest might not be as much fun as first but might cut through more as the track shapes up and as the player gears up to navigate it. I’m not sure that’s where you’re at, but this is a “forum,” so I’ll put that one out there anyway. I think if you’re looking at this particular factor, you’re trying to find an audio fidelity issue that will allow for a step up if you resolve it.

It does become a “chain is as strong as the weakest link” thing. You do have a DI, preamp, and A/D converter in that box ESI interface, and I know you’re not on the biggest budget, but that would be a place to look. And getting an external preamp and plugging it into that would still leave you using the $10 converter (I’m estimating $10/channel preamp, $10/channel A/D converter, leaving $10/channel D/A converter for the outputs). Beyond the cost thing, it’s also on USB power, which is not ideal for a signal. Let’s say for the sake of discussion that a preamp brings a signal up 400x – despite the notion that a preamp’s doing a job that should be “transparent,” if there is a serious compromise here, I would think it would be audible downstream. Again, I’m not saying this to be definitive, but it is a place to look.

First of all, the amp sim thing has REALLY evolved in the last 15 years. I remember using Amp Farm on the old Pro Tools 5.3.1 TDM systems – you might get one FX guitar out of it, but as far as tracking “basic rhythms,” they’d sound OK on the rough, and they would just be un-mixable, once you hit them with EQ/compression to bring them into focus. I think it’s obvious that that’s no longer true. So I do have a bit of an unfair bias towards the amp sim thing.

But I would say that there are tones that work better on them than others. And where I was going with that was that the single-string low stuff is where the DI amp sim distortion can really shine, but complex chords with SOME overdrive/distortion (not totally blazing) was always kind of the hardest thing to get sounding right. I’m not too well versed in the 2021 amp sim game at the moment, so I could be proven wrong on this.

Two slight problems with that approach, definitely. This is where it’d be handy to have a friend with an amp collection and a soundproof basement…

OK.

“Sizzle” meaning a frequency range – like 2k to 5k or maybe 2.5k-7k. I’m not hearing a noise issue. I’m wanting to hear definition and focus up there, but what I was saying was that I don’t think it’s as simple as an EQ fix. I think you’re on the same page, because if it was an EQ fix, I think you would have done it already.

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Would it help if I posted actual DIs here and have someone with better set up compare it with their results?
I don’t think I have anybody else who could do it for me.

That’s the one I have. But I get the gist of it - hardware I use to connect my guitars to my PC will color the sound.

It may very well depend on the actual ampsim, but I was never able to get decent clean out of them.
Not that I really wanted to for that matter - but maybe it’s part of the problem.
It always was so quiet and very dry sounding.

If you heard it on all tracks I posted, then you may be absolutely correct - this would involve all ampsims and IRs and also two very distict guitars - meaning the problem would be somewhere else.

I adjusted the settings on the amps, this is the result:

  1. Roots
  2. Emissary
  3. Sigma
    All using the same free IR from Lancaster Audio.
    No post processing, just Hi-pass on 60Hz and Low-pass at 6kHz with 12dB slopes.

EDIT:

Here are also just random single tracked riffs with the same settings, same order:


I’m saying the other way around – the idea here is to get a 24-bit unprocessed DI track from someone who’s doing this style and getting a tone you like with an amp sim. Then import that DI track into your DAW and see what happens when you put the amp sim on and twist the knobs. The idea is to isolate the variables to see what’s going to work – so if you put your processing on their solid DI track, what do you get? I know we’re thinking, “in theory, it should sound like ____,” but I think this might be a good spot to drill down. Ideally, maybe someone can send you an isolated dry DI track (or double-track set) from a tune that’s mixed or rough mixed with a good sounding final product.

I would help, but I think there are better people to try this with. Maybe someone can jump in here. Even just 30 seconds of a raw 24-bit DI track of “chunk-chunk-duh-duh-buduhbuduhbudud-weeeeeeeee-chunk-chunk” would work. Still, the best would be evaluating it in context of a song/mix, though. I’m curious to see what the differences are, too.

My worry is that we’re taking a shot from an old iPhone camera and trying to make a big poster out of it, so to speak. Again, on bass guitar, the analog signal chain and the A/D conversion is a HUGE factor, but the frequency range of that signal and the processing that signal goes through is a lot different.

Technically, I’m not talking about coloring the sound, I’m referring to actual sonic fidelity. It’s going to be a harder nut to crack if that’s the issue, because it’ll really come down to hardware. If that A/D converter is the bottleneck, there’s not going to be a way around it, since it’s the only way into digital right now. If the built-in DI/preamp is the bottleneck, there might at least be some options (even running a pedal with a touch of level but no distortion just to buffer the impedance could maybe help, since the pedal might have better electronics than the ESI – I don’t know; this isn’t my area). Even the gain level going in could be an issue, but I don’t think that’s an issue here. So there are a few things to work through, and I think you could use a “primary standard” tone to A/B against.

Maybe there’s someone to trade files with in both directions (so you can play a quick riff and they can drop it into a session). I’m down to contribute a DI track of some Metallica riffs or something – I just don’t have a guitar with a low B and humbuckers.

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I do, and I’m using a Focusrite Scarlett Solo as my DI box right now (USB powered, so that’s suboptimal, but oh well). So if a DI track for comparison is needed, I wouldn’t mind providing one, but it won’t be top quality.

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Would be great - I know Focusrite Scarlett line is newer and I guess better than what I’ve got. It would be interesting to have a look and compare the two side by side.

That’s not a problem, since I’ve also got an 8 string tuned to standard F# - if I skip two heaviest strings it will be just like a regular E-standard - however it could not be any more different in pickups (active humbuckers).

If you want to share the DI’s I could try something with them. I have real amps, but that would answer the question if your A/D DI conversion is good enough or not.

That’s great!
I can’t attach WAV files to posts, so I compressed the two DIs and upladed them here:

One is my old Dean Vendetta, the other is Shecter Blackjack.

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I’m gonna try to set up a mic tomorrow and throw some tracks together!

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I don’t really play the style you do, but I DO own a couple decent seven strings, and could track in 24-bit through an Apogee Ensemble and host a 30-second DI wav file for you to try loading. Been meaning to throw a fresh set of strings on my Suhr modern 7 anyway, if a swamp ash body with a Blaze in the bridge isn’t too far removed from your gear of choice.

Also, do you have a good example of what sort of tone you’re going for? Ideally, something where there’s a couple seconds of solo’d guitars in the intro or in a breakdown or something?

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My Vendetta which I used the most in the samples above is supposed to be mahogany body, bolt-on maple neck, Bill Lawrence L-500Xlb pickup.
Shecter is full mahogany, and set-in neck on Seymour-Duncan Blackouts (it’s an 8 string by the way).
But the point is to see if my DIs are any good so yes, please, if you could post yours that would be fantastic!

Not in a long shot, no - but I am currently working on some songs from Akhlys’ album “The Dreaming I”:

Hence the riffs I used in the samples.
Since my last post I lowered input level on my interface by another 2dBs (-14dB now) and tweaked my plugins a little, I think it’s quite usable for jamming now, but when I tried to record part of the song it didn’t go so well. Rythm was somewhat OK-ish, but lead did not sit like I wanted - maybe it’s just down to mixing,i.e. panning and eq-ing and such.
But I really like to nail the tone in my covers, getting as close to original artists’ tone and sound as possible.

For my own stuff I haven’t really decided yet, to be honest - I don’t have my own material yet, not a full song - but I guess time will tell.

Meanwhile this is how it would sound in a mix:

Rythm quad tracked - Sigma + Emissary
Lead double tracked - Roots

Suffice to say it could be better.

We have EXTREMELY different styles, haha, but I’ll try to record some simple DI stuff over the weekend for you. It won’t be this heavy I’m afraid, I don’t have the kind of rhythm chops for that, but it should give you some sort of indication of if it’s your signal chain.

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Oh, no, no, I do play black metal, but my fav band of all time is TOOL!
It’s just that I want to do a cover of this album, and just happen to be in an atmospheric black metal band :rofl:

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I’ll keep bumping this, but I couldn’t get the reamp in today. Hopefully tomorrow!

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Trying to download but that site is garbage lol. Have any other way to send? You can email me or send a google drive link?

Here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ygqmwsVCvwCxzNGima4zE1dxEri0mLxT/view?usp=sharing