Trying to understand the new lingo being discussed here

Playing Technique
#1

There seems to be a change of lingo recently regarding 2wps. I’ve been trying to read through different forum threads here he past few weeks, but I just leave scratching my head most of the time. I’ve been teaching some of the past lingo to students as well, so I don’t want to give out any further wrong info.

Would it be possible for someone to break down the different clock move possibilities perhaps for just supinated playing?
As far as I understand, there’s:

  1. dwps (9 to 0?)
  2. Uwps (although this was in the past associated with being pronated)
  3. Crosspicking (the double escape )

And my last question:
I’ve been practicing 3nps w 2 way pickslantking. I would change the slant of the pick through my forearm. I have been recently experimenting with the 9 to 2 move when changing strings (double escape crosspicking) and seems to feel less drastic and athletic. I haven’t built speed doing this yet, but I could see how it may be more efficient for me, especially because I improvise a lot, and seems a little more intuitive as opposed to moving the forearm (from supination to pronated).

Does anybody here play 3NPS this way, and prefer it over the supinated and pronated with forearm way?

I hope I’m explaining this right :slight_smile:

3 Likes
#2

Here’s the thing. I think most people, me included, weren’t really ever doing ‘supinated’ to ‘pronated’. Instead, I think a lot of us were just doing ‘supinated’ to ‘less supinated’. The things you are describing with your wrist clock movements were probably always happening, but you were using a non-optimal arm position so you had to keep adjusting it slightly.

Instead why not use an arm position where you don’t have to adjust it? That’s the Crosspicking broadcast which it sounds like you have a pretty good grasp on.

Alternatively what if you used an approach where you intentionally adjusted the arm position on every note? At least then the approach would be consistent. That’s the second Crosspicking broadcast.

In either case all we’re doing is taking what you were already doing and pointing out that you could do them separately if you want. Why? Well one thing is just knowledge. We were unclear on how these techniques worked and I feel like we now have a better idea what is really going on. And two as you’re suggesting it gives you more options. Maybe the ‘all wrist’ method will work better for you for whatever reason.

In general it sounds like you have a good grasp o these concepts so good work and thanks for keeping up!

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#3

Thanks @Troy ! Makes a lot of sense.

Just curious, could you point me to where in the last workshop you’re referring to when you talk about not moving the arm or moving the arm?

I watched it again, but couldn’t find where you were talking about that.

#4

One way you can look at this is that there are sort of a few different options for “two way pickslanting”. Here’s a little overview of those options as I understand them right now.

There is the Antigravity / Pickslanting Primer method, where you use occasional forearm during string changes. You can watch those for descriptions of how the arm adjustments work. They’re still reasonably accurate.

Then you have the “no forearm at all” approach. The “Crosspicking with the Wrist” lesson is our best description of how to get those movements happening:

https://troygrady.com/channels/talking-the-code/crosspicking-with-the-wrist/

Of course we’re using bluegrass roll patterns in this lesson. But what happened in my case is that once I started getting good at this, I started using this motion for other types of phrases, like scale playing. And when I did that, the movement split in half, where I wasn’t making the complete curved motion all the time, but instead, making only the downstroke escape portion, or the upstroke escape portion, as necessary. In other words, it became two-way pickslanting. This is what it looks like when you do that:

So to get the “wrist only” approach to two-way pickslanting I would watch the crosspicking broadcast, and start with the roll patterns as I describe. Once you start to do those smoothly, you can try this approach on other kinds of phrases and see what it looks like. In my case, I didn’t have to specifically try split the motion in half. It happened as a result of trying to go faster. So that’s one approach you can try right now. Right now we have precisely one data point of someone where this worked - me! Hopefully over time we’ll get more insight into different ways to approach this.

At the other end of the spectrum you have the “forearm all the time” approach. Our last workshop with the very snazzy title of “Crosspicking With the Wrist And Forearm” is where we talk about that:

https://troygrady.com/channels/talking-the-code/crosspicking-with-the-wrist-and-forearm/

This is another crosspicking technique in the sense that you can use it to play continuous one-note-per-string arpeggios. But what is interesting here is that this is pretty much the same motion we describe in Antigravity and the Pickslanting Primer as the pickslanting motion, except now you’re doing it on every note. So it basically becomes your picking motion. The benefit of this is that you can use it to play any combination of notes per string. You’ll still have to work out those lines and learn all the combinations of string changes in order to play them cleanly, so it’s not really a “get out of jail free” card where you just fret anything and the picking hand magically follows. That doesn’t really exist. But at least in this approach, you’re using the same motion for all the notes so you don’t have to deal with mixing two different motions together and trying to make that smooth.

Just keep in mind that when most people use forearm motion, the use it together with the wrist. So in this broadcast, that’s the motion we’re talking about, and how to recognize what the movement looks like when it’s “more forearm”, and when it’s “more wrist”. These are very broad categories so it’s more about understanding the concept.

Finally, I wrote a blog post on this subject which outlines the history of our insights into “two-way pickslanting” and shows a few video examples:

https://troygrady.com/2018/07/16/what-is-two-way-pickslanting-and-how-does-it-work/

Let me know if that helps!

#5

``Of course we’re using bluegrass roll patterns in this lesson. But what happenedin my case is that once I started getting good at this, I started using this motion for other types of phrases, like scale playing. And when I did that, the movement split in half, where I wasn’t making the complete curved motion all the time, but instead, making only the downstroke escape portion, or the upstroke escape portion, as necessary. In other words, it became two-way pickslanting. This is what it looks like when you do that

Thanks so much Troy. I think I’m starting to understand more what you’re saying. Just to be sure, is what you’re basically saying in this paragraph?

So if I’m doing 3NPS…an example would be with a supinated hand, and I happen to have a downward slant on the pick the whole time…

  1. the first down stroke note on the 6th string pick would not escape towards 0 on the clock
  2. the second note would be a 9:00 escaped motion
    3)the third note, which is the transition to the 5th string would be a 2:00 (crosspicked)
  3. the first note on the 5th string would be back to the regular 9:00 escape
    5)the second note on the 5th strong would be a 0 on the clock (not escaped)
  4. the 3rd note on the 5th string would be 9:00.

(Everything repeats after these 6 notes)

Meaning everything is 9 to 0 deviation, except the 2:00 string change when neccesary. Sorry for the long question, but I don’t know any shorter way to ask it :slight_smile:

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#6

You have the right idea, that the pick path flip flops as necessary for the string change. However, I didn’t practice that way. I practiced the roll patterns And when they were smooth, then I tried scale playing and I just tried to “go fast”. When I slowed it down in the camera, that video up there is what I saw. I did not plan out which pickstrokes were going to go in which direction.

I’m sure we can try and work out which picking path I’m using for each note. I heven’t even done that - you’d have to look at the video to know. But it might be overkill. If you can get there with the more intuitive approach of learning the complete 902 motion through roll playing, and then letting the hand figure out how to divide it up, maybe that will just “work” for you.

Give that a shot. If you find that you need more specifics on which pickstroke to do at which point, we can always try and work that out later.

#7

You shouldn’t worry about the “slant” of your grip - it doesn’t affect the motion. Instead, it is determined by the pick attack - you adjust it until the attack is smooth. Specifically, the pick should be at a right angle to its path of motion when it hits the strings. Otherwise, you’re going to get the “garage spikes” issue where one of the pickstrokes catches on the string.

In plain English if you have a pretty flat motion path compared to the strings, then your pick should be close to vertical. A few degrees one way or another isn’t critical. The more angled your movement, the more pickslant you need to cancel that out, so the pick hits the strings square. In the clip above, you can perceive what appears to be a mild “downward pickslant” at times. It’s mostly irrelevant because the motion path is so flat.

Again, tailor the grip slant to the motion.