Tubes vs. analog SS: do you learn more from the former?

Gear
#1

Abstract
I’m not sure if there’s any reason besides tone preference not to go with an analog SS rig rather than tubes when I start upgrading this summer. I’ve heard things like “you hear your mistakes more with tubes” but haven’t actually heard any arguments for that assertion.

Rambling Nonsense
I’m looking at upgrading my rig from “random amp sim” to “actually moving air in the room” this summer. One of the things I’m looking at is a full pedalboard rig: solid state preamp pedal, EQ/boost/etc., and a pedalboard poweramp. I’ll be in a smaller apartment with more roommates, so something modular that I can feed into an IR loader seems to be a good idea since I don’t know what the roommate volume tolerance will be. I’m also pretty fond of old Ampeg VH140C and Randall RG100 tones, and exact or near-exact replicas of those preamps are pretty easy to find in pedal format for a steal.

Conclusions and Recommendations For Future Work
I haven’t played through an actual tube amp in ages. Is there anything I’ll be missing besides nebulous accusations of “harsh tone” from tube amp response vs. analog solid state?

Bibliography
The sorts of options I’m eyeing are along the lines of the Master Effects Vulgar, the SNK VHD pedal, or the Warhead quarter-stack. The latter of these might pose some volume issues, so I’m leaning towards the pedalboard type setup for the ability to use an IR loader, as mentioned in Section Rambling Nonsense.

#2

I’ve never heard this I think? I’ve heard “you hear more errors with lower gain” or something to that effect, but even then it’s not a tube vs ss thing, or even digital amp sim. If you want to hear more errors, just hit “record” and play it back, lol.

No. I have a similar pedalboard that’s preamp pedal into IR, and I love it. I say that with two amps at my disposal which I also love.

2 Likes
#3

Sick. What’s your setup?

#4

It’s an Origin Effects Hot Rod compact / deluxe into a Darkglass Element, with a Walrus Effects Slo (?) for delay. Most all the “direct” tones I’ve posted on the forum is that.

1 Like
#5

Very cool, thanks! The Darkglass is especially relevant to my interests right now.

1 Like
#6

There are no tubes in FET-based amp-in-a-box pedals, and modern musicians use them without qualm. Here’s the mad genius behind JHS pedals explaining it, with a comical appearance by Paul Gilbert: https://youtu.be/hWHtXRYcRYI?si=7L8W4LmDL85J9kcV&t=429

1 Like
#7

If you are not planning to stand in front of a stack and let the sound waves of a tube amp lift you off the floor, I’d argue either choice is equally valid in a studio or lower-volume setting.

I’d actually favor a SS solution because it would likely be more consistent.

2 Likes
#8

well NOW I am! ffs steve stop putting ideas in my head

1 Like
#9

Why? If you crank both to the same volume level, can you hear a difference?

#10

There’s definitely a difference between IRs and the sound of an amp in a room, that much I’m sure of. An IR replicates a close-miced cab. Your ears are not two inches from your speakers (I hope!).

#11

What application? For playing or recording?

For recording, IRs are pretty much identical, and adding room reverb after the fact (which is pretty much the norm now) makes them indistinguishable.

In person, IRs through a PA for a fully mic’d band would sound the same as mic’d onstage. IRs coming from a FRFR cab for a live band that isn’t being mixed for a PA (e.g. a jam sesh in a garage) would not sound the same as a real cab.

2 Likes
#12

Yeah for recording there’s clearly pretty much no difference, no argument. I am mostly talking about playing for myself, cab in room.

1 Like
#13

I’m just saying. It’s either a Jose-modded JCM800 or just ampless directly to a PA for me. :rofl:

1 Like
#14

:thinking: I’m curious about this area because it confuses me in general. I’ll explain why.

I don’t know what modeler you have right now, but let me pretend that it’s an Axe-FX III, as I have some familiarity with it. Note that there is a huge amount of optional processing available after the Cab. Now, I think one has three listening choices:

  • Listen with headphones. Over here, I presume that one can play around with Delay and Reverb to model a room; so, it should sound realistic if the modeler is accurate?
  • Listen with near-field monitors. I presume that would be similar to the prior headphone case, except that they’re not cranked but aimed at one’s ears?
  • Crank it on linear speakers. In this case I assume that one would turn the Delay and Reverb off, and let the room do its thing? So, shouldn’t this sound accurate?

Don’t get me wrong, I view myself as playing a fake “Mesa Boogie” vs. a real one, and have no doubt that a real one is a very different beast than the model — I could understand complaints about insufficiently accurate models, but the complaints seem much more abstract, about “moving the air,” or not, and that’s what confuses me — I can’t see that problem.

Screenshot 2026-05-09 at 17.38.32
Screenshot 2026-05-09 at 17.38.322518×178 71 KB

#15

I think this isn’t quite right. Your cab block in the diagram you show isn’t just the cab – it’s the cab, plus microphone, plus microphone placement, etc.

tl;dr as I see it, your ears 10 feet from a cab are going to give you something very different from a close-miced cab with reverb, even if the reverb matches the room you’re in perfectly. Mic placement matters because you get a different frequency response depending on where you place the microphone: this precludes “mic + reverb” sounding like “cab in room” even through linear speakers, unless you were to have an IR where the mic is 10 feet away from the cab (bizarrely, these exist, but I’ve never found one that actually sounded good).

I’m making no assertions about whether one is better, though I find myself missing the former more often the longer I play with a modeler.

#16

100% right. The “IR” is merely a linear finite input response filter, and this isn’t such an accurate model for a speaker that is being abused — although it might be accurate for jazz.

That is also true, and apparently at higher frequencies the speakers sound very different in different directions, e.g., a microphone is insufficient to capture the sound in the room. Apparently advanced approaches can capture the sound with multiple microphones, but the IR representation is nothing like that.

I used to think that the weak point in the modelers was that the amps likely behave little like what they’re named after (although they still sound good to my ear). Now I suspect the weak point is really the speaker modeling, as one can tell that they’re nowhere close to reality from being based on a FIR filter and a single measurement point.

1 Like
#17

Yes, agreed. Lots of folks seem to think that the secret to making even a mediocre modeler sound good is the IR.

1 Like
#18

Oh, my… I just realized. There are no true FRFR speakers. A speaker is only FRFR in a particular direction. Now I get the point of studio monitors: They’re FRFR speakers AIMED AT ONE’S EARS (so they behave appropriately). Standing to the side, it’s game over.

3 Likes
#19

The TL;DR is the longest part of this message :rofl:

@kgk Yes. I remember a video of Glen Fricker where he’s dialing in a tone with his back towards his monitors (to face his camera). Every time he’d turn a knob, he’d turn completely away, I was confused until I realized he was pointing his ears at his monitors.

3 Likes
#20

I have some experience with tube amps, particularly a proper plexi 100 watt super lead and 4x12 cab, more recently I’ve been playing through a 64 spec super reverb combo with the 4x10 alnico Jensens.

There is a certain real tube interaction that just cannot be replicated by digital. Can you live with out it, certainly. But it’ll never be 100%. There a tactile feel and immediacy about playing a real rig.

The other thing is hitting your preamp with a good clean boost doesn’t translate to digital either. DI input level is not something you can use the same way, granted you can run a soft boost in DI/analog but nothing will respond like the real thing.

There is another consideration, for example you are using a fuzz and rolling the volume off to get all your drive tones from clean to distortion, there is an impedance interaction between a proper Square Face Fuzz that is very hard to do, I’ve tried the fuzz in the latest Axe FX plugins with their super reverb, it’s damn close but not half as fun. I was amazed by how they have tried to simulate the interactions and gotten close but more like it’s a neat curiosity, I’d never want to spend more time with the software over the real amp as it’s never going to ever be 100% as of now.

The other thing is about close micing, I used to do that with the 4x12 playing malmsteen and it was fine for that purpose but the minute I tried the same with the super reverb SRV tones, it fell apart. I’ve done tons of reading and research around the tone this genre of music needs and found this interesting fact, room micing is a very real thing, its easy in the studio but guys like SRV and Philip Sayce often use their trailer truck, or an actual room at their live venue setup for room micing to the front of the house. Extreme cases agreed.

I think DI stuff like Ox Box and others come very close to getting the amp in the room sound.

So to answer your question, I think the main benefit I have after using real tube gear in the full chain it is intended to be experienced, helps me dial in a software rig better, I know what the compression levels should be to keep my performance real and retain authenticity for my needs.

There is a certain point where the tube gear forces you to play differently for the better, certainly more with the case of the current SRV tones, it’s more physical, very tactile like an acoustic but with the fuzz it’s a different beast that is super responsive to touch dynamics, you can really whack the string and hear the fuzz hit the amp differently. You do need to have your guitar setup for higher action, bigger strings helps stabilise and add string tension to help with picking traction. Just like race cars need the driver to use extremely high pressure force to engage the breaks, simulator rigs all have 100kg pressure hall censors at the least on the break pedal, so you need a really stiff rig, but that’s another story.

2 Likes