Tubes vs. analog SS: do you learn more from the former?

Think about this from the perspective of a recorded guitar - if you record a guitar through a cranked up Marshall to get the poweramp overdriven, do you need to play that recording back at the same level a cranked up Marshall would be?

I mean, yes, of course, obviously, because this is rock and roll, but aside from a moral argument, no, you can play back that recording at whatever level you want.

That’s a big part of the point of an IR - to replicate the sound and response of an amp cabinet pushing some real air, without having to actually have a cabinet wound up loud enough to move some real air.

2 Likes

I’m gonna disagree there a bit. the IR imparts the frequency response that was captured, but not the inherent compression that happens with pushed tubes, and the room which imparts a degree of compression depending on lots of factors.

If you wanted the same sound / feel, you would need the IR blended with some kind of room sim (a separate IR with compression added).

1 Like

Ha, the second part of this is exactly the point I was trying to make to kgk!

Tube compression, IMO, is independent from the IR, since that’s really a product of the amp model itself - if the model has no attempt at variable poweramp modeling, then yeah, what you see is what you get, and if it does, then you probaby do have the ability to vary the degree of, well, anything from “sag” to outright “grind” the poweramp is adding.

But, as far as the room - yeah. An IR models a mic capturing a cab. It sounds like a recording, not an amp. If you want it to sound like an amp, you don’t want an IR of, say, a SM57 1" off the grill and on the edge of the cone of a V30 in a Recto 4x12; you want something more akin to what your ears hear, some sort of flat 20hz-20khz stereo setup pointing hard L and R 6’ off the floor and 10-20’ back. Those exist… but 99.9% of the IRs out there are close mics on cabinets, because that’s how we record guitars, and these sort of software based solutions where IRs become a big part of the equation are first and foremost recording tools.

4 Likes

Kemper sells products designed to entirely replace one’s amp.

If you had the speaker in your room there would be no need for a room IR, as you would be inside it. HOWEVER, if you wanted to put your room into your modeling device and hear your room via headphones, you’d need to (a) make an IR for your room, (b) install its FIR, and (c) apply it after the cabinet + microphone’s IR, where you’re right, they’d be combined via convolution.

The way that step (a) happens is that you’d play a sine sweep via some speaker and record it via some microphone, and then software would record that and do a deconvolution to determine the room’s FIR… something like that. But your earlier points about the room being non-linear are correct.

2 Likes

I’ve been using a Laney Ironheart pedal for the last few years and I love it. I can go direct when I need to or send it to an amp and just use it like a distortion/boost pedal. When the band went to the studio in March, the engineer split the signal so I got both the preamp pedal and a regular guitar amp with a mic on it. Lots of choices. The key with the preamp pedal is to run a compressor into it to better approximate the sound of most guitar amps. And make sure the audio engineer has half a brain. Ran into one at a gig last month that was pretty useless.

2 Likes

…and an AxeFX can also be used to replace an amp if you run it into a clean poweramp and speaker cab, and has a master cab/mic block shutoff for this exact reason. Or, did the last time I played one, at least, which was a really long time ago.

But I seem to be struggling to make the point I think is central here, that they’re two totally different things so you can’t really ask questions like “does a modeler and IR sound like the real thing” because they’re designed to do two different things. So, since a video is worth a thousand words:

I figured I’d just shoot some video demonstrating what I’m trying to say. The “in the room” sound and close mic’d cab sound are just radically different, so unless your IR is designed to capture a "room sound (and they exist, they’re just very uncommon) by modeling an ambient ear-level listening position, you’re just going to hear two different things.

Hope this makes what I’ve been trying to say a little clearer!

1 Like

Let’s see if I can explain. Digital Signal Processing was invented in the late 1960’s or so. It assumes LTI systems (linear, time invariant). This assumption might hold for a jazz cat at low volumes, it will fail for EVH volume levels. For now, you are a jazz cat playing an Axe-FX3. I delete ALL of your cabinet IRs.

You can play in your room with no IRs and use a linear power amp to drive your speaker cabinets and stand anywhere you want. Don’t dare say “but my amp interacts with the cabinets” because that says you violate LTI and the math falls apart.

Now let’s say you want to model what your ears hear in your favorite place. You make a physical model of your head with a left ear and a right ear microphone. You put this head where you want. You record a sine sweep in each microphone, do a deconvolution, and you have two IRs, DREW_LEFT and DREW_RIGHT. Put those in your Axe-FX3 and you can now record what you would hear in the room with no microphones. But to be LTI there is no metal volume levels, or the math violates the assumption for it to work reliably.

OK, you are free to not be a LTI jazz cat and go back to metal.

Ok, so this definitely didn’t get what I’m trying to tell you across. :rofl: Yes, I have heard of people making “room sound” IRs. But, they’re very rare, and the broader point here is you can’t compare an amp to a modeled version unless you’re also running both though either the same IR, or the same 4x12 cabinet in the same room, because of how much even tiny changes in mic position change the sound, much less going from a close mic to listening half a dozen feet away from the speaker.

You keep insisting, with no reason I can see, that IRs are made at too low volumes for speaker excursion to color the sound. Why?

I have a little professional experience with DSP.

Nonlinear DSP is absolutely a thing.

NeuralDSP (the company that makes the Quad Cortex) uses machine learning algorithms that require nonlinearities to work (GeLU, ReLU, sigmoids, etc).

You can make an IR at any volume and it will linearize around that operating point. Drop from that volume and you need to replace the IR with another, as the prior is no longer applicable. Something like an Axe-FX3 will not do that to my knowledge.

This is how one uses a neural network, but the industry does convolutions hence their interest in impulse responses.

Ok, we’re getting somewhere!

That makes much more sense - IRs are capable of producing nonlinear responses, but the nonlinearity itself is baked in, right? We’re in agreement there?

I’d continue, then, that if maybe theoretically that isn’t 100% irrelevant, in practice, for our purposes, it’s something like 99.99% irrelevant. While the nature of that nonlinearity itself is volume sensitive… one, you can pretty much throw out the very extremes becuse you want SOME speaker involvement so any modeling below a threshold where that happens doesn’t matter, and two, for at least most genres and styles (doing “Rumble” covers is an exception, I guess), you want it to stop well before the point of "total speaker meltdown.

Basically, there’s a sweet spot you probably want to fall in. You can debate how large it is and where on that spot you want to be, I guess, but safe to say it’s a range, but not an unbounded one. And, within that sweet spot, from the speaker’s point of view, the dynamics of the performance I’d argue, at least for our purposes here, are pretty minimal; the difference between gently plucking an open high E, and banging on an open E chord Townsend style, into the red channel of a Rectifier, are going to be mcuh, much, much smaller than moving the master volume from 3 to 4.

That’s not true across the board, sure - but, it’s much more true for “Enemies of Reality” than “Riviera Paradise,” ironically enough.

tl;dr - it’s pretty safe to assume that for a hard rock/metal player and a contemporary high gain amp, the degree of nonlinearity in speaker response coming from performance and not how loud the amp is assumed to be cranked up is pretty negligible… and if you’re talking about testing how “accurate” a model is by things like null tests, speaker nonlinearity is going to have a vanishingly small impact compared to things like whether the SM57 is a millimeter further back or two the left on the real cab than the IR, how worn in the speakers are, condition of the tubes, etc. And, if you want to test that faithfully, you have to either run both through a real cabinet, or both through an IR, and for that reason you can’t really do a truly scientific comparison of a real amp to a modeler/IR since you can’t really fully isolate one from the other.

2 Likes

This reminds me of some headphones that I think Roland made? Boss? that would simulate a cab in the room, to the point that you would move your head and the sound would change accordingly? Maybe it was a fever dream, lol.

2 Likes

Boss:

1 Like

I bought a pair several years ago. At first I thought it was not a good investment but then found the couch practice use case and use them now on a daily basis. Engineering is great, sound is awesome, gyro sound direction is very cool and fun to engage. Software is not great but that is Boss/Roland. Easy to travel with. One of my best gear investments.

2 Likes

I’m trying to control my finances and this recommendation is not helping. :rofl:

4 Likes

Anyway, Eric and I were having a sidebar conversation this morning, and we both kinda want to steer this back to its original quesiton:

If the primary concern here is “can a physical amp, in the room, that’s either solid state, or digital but pushing a real speaker, sound as good as a “tube amp,” or am I losing something by not using tubes?” then I think the answer is increasingly, much as I love my tube amps, there ARE totally viable ways to get great in-the-toom tones out of solid state and digital options today. It’s been more than a decade since an AxeFX into a poweramp and cab absolutely floored me with how well it was doing SRV-style “edge of breakup” clean tones, and I’ve got an old Tech-21 Trademark 30 that at this point must be 30 year old technology, and while I hate the EQ section (I just dislike active EQ in guitar amps) if you leave it neutral I think it sounds damned good through a built in 10" speaker, and provides what most people would call a “tube like” response.

The amp half of the technology has been there for a LONG time now; increasingly, cab/mic modeling is the “last frontier” for modeling technology, and I have plenty of thoughts on that (lol), but if that isn’t a priority, then yeah, throw a modeler or quality solid state amp ito a decent cab, and you can get awesome sounds.

2 Likes