So in an effort to take what I understand of the CAGED chord soloing system and make it more friendly for my mode/scale playing self, I was able to create what is an awful lot like a scale from the D chord and accompanying complimentary tones. It looks like this:
Since stumbling upon this D scale, as I’d like to call it, I’ve been trying to flesh out scales for the other chords, but it doesn’t seem to be as easy for those chords.
Is there a resource, book, something that I could buy that has done the work to create chord scales?
Plenty of books out there about the CAGED system. Someone else here who uses the system can recommend one, I’m sure. I’m reading one now by Joseph Alexander to understand where folks are coming from, and I note that there are plenty of diagrams superimposing scales on chord shapes within.
That said, the Chord Scale Theory is something entirely different, and if you are playing modes and scales, you are already playing chord-scales. Rather than rework what’s already working, I’d humbly suggest identifying the chord tones and passing tones within the patterns you already know, and working with that. My two cents. Good luck.
I only just recently came across CAGED for the first time and realized that my own understanding of the fretboard is not all that different from CAGED, but mine is explicitly built on chord inversions and arpeggios up and down the neck rather than open position chords. This is a rather insignificant difference in the grand scheme of things, as you end up with similar shapes, it’s just that I’d never really given much thought to their connections to open positions previously.
RockStarJazzCat is totally right: Chord-scale theory, which is a method of finding/generating scales that work with or extend a given chord in context (regardless of instrument), is only tangentially related to CAGED, which is fretboard specific.
Regarding the scale you’ve drawn up, maybe you could explain a bit what you’re trying to do. It looks like you’ve got the following scale tones from low to high: Root - Perfect Fourth - Perfect Fifth - Root - Major Third - Perfect Fourth - Perfect Fifth - Root - Major Third - Perfect Fourth - Perfect Fifth.
In conventional chord-scale theory, a scale accompanying a major triad (like D) wouldn’t contain a perfect fourth. It’s not wrong to do so; some cool melodies have used perfect fourths against major triads to great effect (and not simply as passing tones, either), but it’s unorthodox. Also, is there a reason for skipping the major third (9th fret on the A string) the first time through? Its omission is glaring because the rest of the scale is uniform. Again, it’s not wrong if it works for you and your music…just curious.
Maybe if you give some context on how you created this scale, why you like it, and why you find it challenging to use it as a template for other chords, we might be able to assist you in cracking this puzzle.
Now that you mention that left out note, I can see the symmetry to this scale now.
Like I said, I’m not really familiar with the theory aspect. I suppose I skipped the 9th fret on the A string partly because I start with my index finger and use a series of arpeggiated moves and some slides to move up the scale and partly because I didn’t recognize the musical congruence as you’ve noted. I just noticed that it sounded musical when playing over a D chord.
I suppose I could start with my ring finger and add the 9th fret to see what happens… hold on… Oh yes, that sounds nice.
So I have been thinking on this, and I appreciate Noetic noticing the repetition of note choice. An interesting thought is that I can simply take this scale and start wherever root I want and use it for that key.
Also, I am thinking of finding other permutations of taking key chord tones, throwing in a passing tone, and coming up with some other scale types to use in such a manner.
It was mostly about doing 7th & 9th type chords using standard chord shapes.
But this is a good way to introduce yourself to playing more across the frettboard using familiar shapes… and changing little things… like making a shape dominant, minor, etc. And you can do this with any of the CAGED shapes.
Thanks @Frylock, yeah there are several books that presumably have a huge following that never made it into my library. I scoured music and bookstores for scraps of information while coming up in the world, and have a huge library, so it’s remarkable that I don’t own it, but not surprising either.
By the time I thumbed through Edwards work (originally released in 1989, it went on to be a best seller?), I’d had at least five top flight improvising guitar instructors. Not one ever mentioned, let alone emphasized, “CAGED,” while teaching. It just wasn’t relevant to what they were doing at all.
I may be totally missing what you’re talking about…
But chords come from scales, not the other way around.
Chords are just bits of a scale played at the same time, that’s why they overlay scales exactly.
What you’ve notated is a chopped up 3 note per string D major scale.
If I’m right, I recommend you memorise the Major scale pattern.
There is only ONE. It just moves to different frets.
Then play your chords from the Major scale, the chords are the same notes/frets as the scale.
The chord shapes overlay the scale exactly. Because you are literally playing the scale, just instead of one note at a time, you’re playing multiple notes at once.
Ultimately there are no chords, chords are really just a trick, a fancy way of playing a scale.
Ofcourse, the various combinations are what gives the apparent complexity and unique sound
But since the scale is made primarily of D chord tones, it can be played over a D chord in the progression and give a very pleasing musical harmony. Then when the progression shifts to, say, an A chord, I could shift my playing of that scale to root A. Shifting along with the melody is much more pleasing to the ears.
I think I’ve come to an understanding of how to approach this with scale patterns. If I create scales that are primarily made up of chord tones, maybe throw in a consistent passing tone (like I did with the one above with the 4th added) I can create some scales that can be shifted around in a certain position to align with the chord progression I am playing over.
For example, with a chord progression like E, D, A, I could simply shift the scale above to the appropriate root note for whatever chord I’m playing over in the progression.
Ok, I just tried this with my looper. This is awesome!
So I can basically build a variety of scales made primarily with chord tones, throw in a passing tone to add some tonal diversity, and then shift it around to accommodate the chord progression.
I’ve been trying to figure out a way to use chord tones in a more scalar fashion, as my progress with chord arpeggios has been kind of slow. Now I can throw in these chord scales to give me some more mobility over the fretboard in a musical way.
Here is another permutation of this with a passing 2nd tone thrown in:
Any progression that isn’t dissonant is already in the scale though right?
There is already an A and E in the D scale, instead of shifting to a new scale that could contain bad or dissonant notes why not just move around in the D scale and focus on those A and E notes as the progression moves to chords A and then E?
I could be misunderstanding completely and apologise if so, though I’m very wary of anything that over complicates theory. But if I am wrong happy to be corrected.
@AGTG, I was hoping you might write out your revised scale structure following some of the feedback you received from the others. Looks like you shifted positions and now listing something “E-ish.” I’m glad you are hearing some magic with the looping pedal.
@noeticsound put what you were doing originally into words…
Which relative to the original D chord is: (check my work?)
D G A D F# G A D F# G A
Which by virtue of the one identified accidental could be in the major keys of G or D. For now I’m calling it the original @AGTG scale.
Your stated progression in play is, I think,
E --> D --> A
@WhammyStarScream is reacting to something that they see you doing that is a little bit odd, and somewhat behind the reason many of us that learned “position playing” long before the other systems (CAGED and 3nps, etc.), react to as well.
Without additional song context indicating modulation, the three major chords live in the key of A.
@AGTG, the sound to your ear is important, but to avoid getting into the weeds, here are the notes in the key of A your are working with.
A B C# D E F# G#
And here are the notes defining the chords you’ve identified to play over.
A C# E
D F# A
E G# B
This…
…in terms of traditional theory is weird because all of your chords, at least by default, live in a relatively recognizable key. They are the IV, V, and I chord of A major.
You have a palette of notes. If you shift around with your constructed scales, that’s great, but there are implications in common practice that are likely to be hard to help you with unless the experiment is nailed down in its bounds. Peace out. D
My goal with this thread was not to grasp or express musical theory in a legitimate or academically satisfying manner. I just wanted to find out if there were any resources available that had scales made of chord tones.
Noetic helped me understand what I was doing, and helped me understand how to create what my understanding, erroneous in traditional musical theory as it may be, are scales with chords. So in that respect, this thread has been awesome for me.
I am familiar with the modes, and play them up and down the fretboard, but rather than examining every note in each scale to pull out the chord tones and hop around the scale, so to speak, I’m just starting from the other end of things and using the chord tones and recreating new scales to navigate the fretboard.
I’m not interested in mastering theory in the near future, it’s just not something I want to put the time and effort into. But, I do want to become a better lead guitarist. And I think this discovery, as musically illegitimate as it may be, will help me to that end.
The benefit I can see in it is that it will be easier to throw in an additional note outside the chord scale I’ve created to add tonal diversity, rather than pare down a modal scale which has numerous notes outside of the chord pattern in a given chord of a progression it is being played over.
In other words, I start with a bare skeleton and flesh it out a bit as I get familiar with the tones around it that compliment it rather than disecting a whole scale, if that makes sense.
It does make sense, and that’s cool, and you’ve stated what you are looking to do. Given that you are in DIY mode, you might want to just call them “scales” or if you want to, “synthetic scales,” as “chord scale” refers to a theoretical concept you’re not really exploring per se. Heads up though, CAGED books are going to include theory, as theory generally reflects practice.
Diagonal shapes like this are cool, but remember, you have to memorize the connections to this shape. What happens when you’re in the upper part of this shape, and the chord changes? And what if it changes to something that’s not in same key any more? You have to know how to find all the new notes, relatively from this shape.
So for me, diagonal shapes are position shifting shapes. The top of your shape is a another D triad, and that’s a whole new position. It’s still D, but a new “area” of D, and it goes straight across the neck at the 14th fret. I have put in the work to know all the connections from the first area - the 10th fret area - and the second area, the 14th fret area, so if the chord changes when I am in either place, no problem, I already know where the other possibilities are. The common ones anyway.
So basically I’m defining position as “straight across” and position shift as “diagonal upward”. I think that’s the most natural way to do it. A diagonal shape is a like a crosstown bus that takes you through other areas, and you can step off at any point - bottom, middle, top, wherever - and in all of those places you will be in a new area, and you will have to know that area and all its connections in order to know the neighborhood when you get off the bus.
TLDR I would try and work out some straight-across 10th fret ideas to go with your diagonal one. This way you are covered in both scenarios.
